Timeline for How many more casualties in the war on pronouns?
Current License: CC BY-SA 4.0
35 events
| when toggle format | what | by | license | comment | |
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| Nov 6, 2019 at 4:59 | comment | added | aparente001 | @MonicaCellio My impression is that the CMs have no control over this. // Are you and your lawyer on the same page about your goals for your legal action? Most lawyers tend to steer clients toward a monetary approach to "making things right," but I suspect that's not what you really want here. Proposal: How about you go through SE's poorly designed hoops to get reinstated, and then spearhead a movement to change the fundamental relationship with the volunteer moderators? I don't want a martyr Monica. I want a leader Monica. | |
| Nov 5, 2019 at 21:29 | comment | added | Monica Cellio | @Shog sure you can go back and change it. You can revert the bad decision. You can take comparable action against people who actually violated the code of conduct with personal attacks and insults in TL, about which I filed tickets. You can get back to a consistent, known-good state and move forward from there, instead of throwing one victim under the bus while taking no action on much bigger problems. Where is SE's humanity? Where are the values it claims to uphold? | |
| Oct 18, 2019 at 5:48 | comment | added | Félix Gagnon-Grenier | huge_hug_emoji.gif | |
| Oct 18, 2019 at 5:06 | comment | added | user255942 | if anyone here is not interested in helping others to learn and build, then they should go do something else, somewhere else. - does that apply to SE head honchos, and the mod/CM team too? If not, it's just hypocritical to say that. If it is, maybe someone should start enforcing it? | |
| Oct 17, 2019 at 4:12 | comment | added | Ben Miller | @dan04 They didn’t ask for them on meta, as far as I know. | |
| Oct 17, 2019 at 3:31 | comment | added | dan04 | @BenMiller: Obviously, someone asked for these changes. The point is that it was a vocal minority rather than the SE community as a whole. | |
| Oct 16, 2019 at 16:27 | comment | added | aparente001 | @Wildcard - Fred said "politely." In principle, this would be fine -- people can politely agree to disagree. But (a) he formatted the entirety of his question with a very large heading -- the equivalent of shouting or writing in all caps; (b) he is frequently not polite in discussions; (c) he doesn't seem to be content with agreeing to disagree; (d) when he has been given the opportunity to have a patient, respectful discussion about disagreements, he has accepted but then not followed up. So, in this context, the answer becomes no, not by Fred's definition of polite. | |
| Oct 15, 2019 at 18:20 | comment | added | Wildcard | Thanks for sticking around, Shog. I think that @fredsbend's question is more relevant than you give credit for. If the answer is, "No, you are not allowed to politely disagree that gender is internally defined," that would be extremely clear-cut. That does seem to be implied by the "FAQ" on the new change, but with enough doubletalk to leave everyone in doubt. | |
| Oct 14, 2019 at 6:38 | comment | added | Shadow Wizard | @Shog so SE just mass warn people, alienating them, without even trying to explain to them what they're warned for? Good move. | |
| Oct 14, 2019 at 4:31 | comment | added | Ben Miller | @Shog9 “Can’t go back & change it though.” Yes, you (SE) can. Most users here aren’t holding grudges. If you reinstate Monica and go back to the previous CoC, all will be forgiven by most users. No one was asking for these changes; they were unnecessary. | |
| Oct 14, 2019 at 2:21 | comment | added | yagmoth555 | Yes, we made our jobs 1000x harder than they had to be. That sucks. Can't go back & change it though. Still got fires to put out. Why, can't go back? We are all humans, we all do errors. Assuming an error can be hard, and some people just can't, but people understand that error happen. Everyone hoped for a true mea culpa there. I dont know why a deaf tone is used. | |
| Oct 13, 2019 at 23:58 | comment | added | Shog9 | Click the link @lang - there are examples. | |
| Oct 13, 2019 at 23:54 | comment | added | LаngLаngС | This all builds on a pretty mountain of cultural assumptions. Since I am from a different one, it is hard to follow. On what theoretical, philosophical frameworks does this all build? I asked for examples and evidence, to learn in praxi, but that is against policy, already deleted etc. So can you please point me to or better add literature that explains exactly the points in your quote? This is otherwise another broken feedback loop. I have apparently no idea: What's "subtle putdown"? I learned fundamentally different definitions for personal attacks/ad hominem than used here. Etc. | |
| Oct 13, 2019 at 23:47 | comment | added | Shog9 | Means I'm busy @shadow. | |
| Oct 13, 2019 at 22:35 | comment | added | Shadow Wizard | I can prove you wrong. I got a warning here, and got no reply when asking to show me what I'm warned for. This means one thing, that I'm going to be suspended just for expressing my opinion. | |
| Oct 13, 2019 at 19:41 | comment | added | Amarth | This is not the time for mass-censorship in every single thread either. You are putting out fire with gasoline and then wonder why people get furious and go seek retribution. Yes indeed those people will go and do something else - I would imagine that most of us will go somewhere else and do something else, very soon. | |
| Oct 13, 2019 at 17:53 | comment | added | user102937 | Cindy absolutely has the right idea. Clean, simple and to the point, and it has the virtue of not requiring anyone to take a position. | |
| Oct 13, 2019 at 17:44 | comment | added | Shog9 | TBF, most of it has surrounded your assumptions regarding the answer to that question, @fred. I kinda think Cindy has the right idea. | |
| Oct 13, 2019 at 17:27 | comment | added | nvoigt | "Can't go back & change it though." As far as I know, whether Monica is a moderator or not is just a flag in the database. There is no reason SE could not "go back & change it". They just don't want to. That's a huge difference. | |
| Oct 13, 2019 at 17:26 | comment | added | Victor Stafusa | To make this cool down so you could hopefully enjoy a weekend and see that everything is still fine on the Monday, SE should really try to address the core issues that leaded to this madness and really work into improving its own transparency and public images to their established communities. Otherwise, you won't be able to step out of firefighting mode for a long time. Many people (including me) thinks that SE do not hear nor care about their own community anymore, even ridiculing their own users. So please, tell whoever is on management, that they need to work on fixing that impression ASAP | |
| Oct 13, 2019 at 17:10 | comment | added | Pascal says Talk to Monica | @shog9: the exact comment doesn't matter, you've had a lot to do, it's not important if you don't remember. "go do something more enjoyable". Yes, I agree. It's just that I'm still in stage 4 of the grieving process, but I am moving towards stage 5, at which point I guess I'll go away. | |
| Oct 13, 2019 at 17:07 | comment | added | user102937 |
That's why I'm here on a weekend yet again ... Yeah. As usual, SE makes decisions, and then is content with leaving it to you and the other CM's to clean up after the resulting mess.
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| Oct 13, 2019 at 17:06 | comment | added | Shog9 | I'm not sure which comment you're referring to, @pascal... But I've said essentially the same thing for a decade: if this isn't fun, if being here makes you miserable, makes you want to lash out... Then go do something more enjoyable. None of this is worth hurting yourself or others. | |
| Oct 13, 2019 at 17:02 | comment | added | Pascal says Talk to Monica | @Shog9: "they should go do something else, somewhere else": +1 for the hint. I think I will do that. You've said it before, and I called you out on it in a comment that has since disappeared, saying it's not a very clever thing to incite your content creators and moderators to vote with their feet, but I see now that you were right, there really doesn't seem anything else left to do. I'm sorry to say so, because up to about a week ago I really liked this place. It's too bad corporate SE thinks it needs to sacrifice well-meaning contributors for the sake of... well, I don't know what. | |
| Oct 13, 2019 at 17:01 | comment | added | Rob Moir | @RobertHarvey It's not a hill I want to die on, sure, but Shog is a notable contributor to why I've stopped having much to do with Stack Exchange in the way I used to. I got pinged to have what was going on and I'm disappointed to see not much has changed. | |
| Oct 13, 2019 at 16:56 | comment | added | user102937 | @RobMoir: I'd be cautious about lambasting Shog's opinions. You don't actually know what they are. All I've ever seen him say about this whole thing is that it's not a hill worth dying on. Sage advice. | |
| Oct 13, 2019 at 16:55 | comment | added | Shog9 | That's why I'm here on a weekend yet again, @Victor. I wish I could wave a wand and make this all better, but I can't; the best I can do - the best most of us can do - is just be here, visible, watching and guiding. That feels like not very much in the face of all this, but... I hope it is better than nothing. | |
| Oct 13, 2019 at 16:49 | comment | added | Victor Stafusa | Most of people, including me, have fear of being suspended or banned for crossing invisible lines due to some random unknown unfair accusation without realistic chance of getting defense. And SE is not doing a good job in reducing other people fear. In fact, the level of fear, anger, frustration and mistrust is just raising. If there is someone who could help to dispel that bad feelings, that person is you. So I ask you, if possible, to do something that makes people feel safe again. | |
| Oct 13, 2019 at 16:47 | comment | added | Rob Moir | Given the way Monica and others have been treated in the past, and that your hands are hardly clean in that regard, you'll forgive me if I take anything you say on affairs like this with a pinch of salt. I'm not going to say anything as extreme as you and Sara are no longer entitled to an opinion, but I think your opinions are to be treated with suspicion at this time. | |
| Oct 13, 2019 at 16:46 | comment | added | Alon Eitan | Reinstating Monica will probably change the view about the CoC - I don't believe that people insist not to be nice for no reason | |
| Oct 13, 2019 at 16:43 | comment | added | StoryTeller - Unslander Monica | Interesting view. Another view is that going back and revising that decision; thereby showing that the CoC is not a sword against the unaware; would be like dumping a whole vat of water from a jumbo plane across this burning field. | |
| Oct 13, 2019 at 16:43 | comment | added | MechMK1 | I understand that being a CM at SE, Inc. is not the best job to have right now. I just hope that the community feedback for the new Code of Conduct is being treaten seriously, and not like "This is just a vocal minority full of hateful trolls who hate LGBT+ people". | |
| Oct 13, 2019 at 16:39 | comment | added | Shog9 | Yes, we made our jobs 1000x harder than they had to be. That sucks. Can't go back & change it though. Still got fires to put out. | |
| Oct 13, 2019 at 16:38 | comment | added | MechMK1 | Given the way Monica was treaten, it seems to me like exclusion is SE, Inc.'s way of implementing more inclusion. "Exclusion is Inclusion" is such an orwellian phrase. | |
| Oct 13, 2019 at 16:35 | history | answered | Shog9 | CC BY-SA 4.0 |