Why do we let hostile users dictate the perception of Stack Overflow? [closed]

Question

This question is a great example of why Stack Overflow is getting a reputation for being a hostile environment these days

Possible to convert C# get,set code to C++

This is clearly a developer used to C# who is trying to apply existing concepts to C++ and failing. You can see from his comments that he has been googling for an answer all day, has no coworker who can help him and came to Stack Overflow as a last resort. How do we reward him? Here is a sample of the feedback we've provided so far

• Pick up a good C++ book and learn the actual language.
• The problem here is that you have no idea about C++
• And why in the world are you converting Managed code to Unmanaged?

All of these have been flagged. But given the load on the moderators this question was closed and the user resorted to apologizing in several comments for his inability to google well enough all while the hostile comments / answers remain.

Does anyone seriously think the OP is going to post here again?

Why do we accept this as OK? Why can five users, who would comment only RTFM if we allowed them, dictate the reputation of the site? Why does it take so long for hostile comments to be removed? Why do we let people who post hostile comments keep posting at all?

If you want to scream RTFM then may I suggest LKML. There should be no place for you on Stack Overflow.

Answer 1

It's these kinds of problems that are the reason that I vote to close questions without comment nowadays.

The new close reasons are clear, specific, polite, and tell the OP exactly what they need to do to improve their question so that it can get reopened. They are standardized; everyone gets the same message. Additional narrative beyond that is simply not necessary.

So if you find that your comments are being interpreted as rude or hostile more often than not, simply refrain from commenting.

Answer 2

I admit, my answer was obviously a lot more over the top than I had intended. I should have simply voted to close and left a comment instead.

However, at the most fundamental level, we're not talking about RTFM for that guy, because the fact that he didn't memorize a specific flag or function isn't the problem. The problem is that he does not have a minimal understanding of the differences between C++ and C#.

I mean, seriously. Out of all of the possible differences, this is one of the most trivial. This guy is going to be utterly screwed when it comes to some of the more complex differences, like GC vs RAII, or replacing the BCL components that have no equivalent in C++.

The simple fact is, he needs an entire book's worth (or probably several) of material to perform this task adequately. Simply showing him the solution to this specific instance would be completely unhelpful for him. There is no chance in hell that he can actually succeed in converting anything but the most trivial C# to C++ at his current knowledge level. He would have to come back and post a new question every single time.

Answer 3

I agree that we need to be nicer to users. However,

Stack Overflow is for professional and enthusiast programmers, people who write code because they love it.

We generally expect someone to have the basic knowledge needed to write code. In fact, we have a close reason that specifically addresses that:

Questions asking for code must demonstrate a minimal understanding of the problem being solved. Include attempted solutions, why they didn't work, and the expected results.

That does not mean the that the OP can get away with just knowing how to code in some language; he or she must understand how to code in the language featured in their question.

If the OP of the linked question does not know C++, s/he needs to understand that Stack Overflow is not the place to get basic tutorial advice. We can help with specific questions once that foundation is laid elsewhere.

Answer 4

What's happening here?

It feels like much of this dialogue is in one of two camps:

1. This is but one example of how the pervasive nastiness here is detroying our repution, or

2. I'd rather hear the raw, straight blunt truth than some lovely lies; the answers the OP got were perfectly fine.

Both of those are at least partially wrong.

1. While we are attracting a bit of a reputation as being unwelcoming, it is getting better in a bunch of ways, and there's a major reporting bias: for every person who does have a bad, avoidable experience here, there are dozens who got helped by someone who worked hard to understand and solve their problem, but never feel the need to rant about how awesome that is.
2. Loving the truth and believing our community gets a somewhat unfair rep doesn't require you to defend those few cases when we do respond badly. And it doesn't require us to argue that the blunt truth is better than rainbow-laden lies. Even if you think "go read a book" is the most honestly helpful advice, the way that (now-deleted) answer presented it was still unduly rude:
   • "The problem here is that you have no idea about C++" may or may not be true, but it's not nice, and more importantly, it kills any chance the next thing you say will get listened to. How hard is it to replace it with "It sounds like you're trying to apply C# techniques to C++; they look similar, but behave very differently." Or nothing. Cut that line entirely, and start with, "C++ doesn't have an equivalent feature..."
   • "Kindly learn the language you are attempting to use prior to use." Again, this adds nothing but snark. You'd never say that to someone in real life who you wanted to respect your opinion.

I'm not trying to beat up DeadMG, who was open-minded enough to acknowledge that he came off harsher than intended. My point is that we should stop suggesting that all the responses were civil; they weren't.

In conclusion:

We are not going to hell in a hand basket. We (mostly you) are AWESOME.

It's often not much harder to be just as clear, but be NICER. Do that.

Answer 5

It's been said that, "A lie can be halfway around the world before the truth gets its boots on." That's the case here, more or less.

All it takes to create that perception is for one new user to have one experience with one piece of hostility, whether real or imagined, whether deserved or undeserved. And he goes and tells everyone else. And thus, the perception is created through no fault of our own. And ultimately, there's nothing that can be done about that.

At least, not without degrading the quality of the site. Because Stack Overflow must be hostile to some things; bad or ignorant questions need to be shut down. And more often than not, when hostility is displayed, I find that it is just and deserved hostility. It's directed disproportionately against new users, but that's because new users are disproportionately more like to ask bad questions.

Can it be a bit over-the-top at times? Sometimes, the hostility is meted out in greater amounts than the question deserves. But I think more often than not, behind 80% of the hostile comments and answers is a question that on some level deserves it.

Answer 6

The premise is unproven: that 'SO has a hostile reputation.' We've all seen a few loud complainers, but, somehow, that does not seem to stop new people from showing up.

At ApacheCon this past winter, I heard a thought-provoking talk about applying filters when dealing with internet communities. Filters on what you say, and, more relevantly, filters on what you hear. Yea, civility is great. But the Internet in general, and StackOverflow in particular, contains a very wide range of cultural backgrounds, personalities, and, for all we can tell, species. Not everyone you meet is going to be "nice" by your ideal standards of "nice".

So, at the same time that we encourage civility, we need to also encourage the cultivation of some thickness of skin. If you only want to deal with people just like you, stay in your bathroom. If you want to ask the entire bloody internet for help with your problems, you need to be prepared for, well, a bit of bloody-mindedness.

Answer 7

I want to take some time and go through this "hostile feedback" of yours. May I?

And why in the world are you converting Managed code to Unmanaged?

To me this actually reads as "This is possibly an X/Y problem. I can't fathom why you'd actually try this, why are you actually trying or need to do this?". Time and time again I've seen questions asked where people attempt to do things not because they actually need to but because of some prior misconception. Hostility? None found.

Pick up a good C++ book and learn the actual language.

This has been thoroughly covered in the comments. OP is clearly not aware that C++ does not have properties like C# does meaning he probably has very little knowledge of C++. In order to properly re-write code from language A to language B one needs an at least minimal understanding of both languages. Something OP lacks. How does one fix this? By picking up a good book and learning the language. Hostility? Again, not really.

The problem here is that you have no idea about C++

While this may come across as an insult "You have no clue what you're doing", it's more of a factual statement, IMHO. Whoever wrote this is merely pointing out that the problem here is that you're attempting to use feature in language A in language B where it does not exist. Something you wouldn't actually attempt to do if you knew C++. Could've been sugar coated I guess but not hostile or insulting in any way.

Now comes the case of DeadMG's answer. I don't have 10k rep so I can't actually grab the text and do an analysis. But from what I remember, the essence of it reflected some or most of the elements I pointed out earlier. We can agree to disagree on whether or not it was offensive, but in the end he was right. In order to perform his task, OP needs to learn C++ first.

Now that all of this is said:

This question is a great example of why Stack Overflow is getting a reputation for being a hostile environment these days

I believe this is in fact not a great example of SO being a hostile environment.

This question is a great example of why Stack Overflow is getting a reputation for being a hostile environment these days

EDIT: Ok so I was told where to find the original answer:

The problem here is that you have no idea about C++- namely, it does not have an equivalent feature, and even if it did, simply pasting the code like that would never work- for example, this.f() is illegal C++. Kindly learn the language you are attempting to use prior to use.

I'll give you this: it could have been sugar coated. But what is this answer really saying?

The problem here is that you have no idea about C++- namely, it does not have an equivalent feature, and even if it did, simply pasting the code like that would never work- for example, this.f() is illegal C++.

The bit about not knowing C++ I've covered. The rest is a factual statement that C++ does indeed not have an equivalent feature to C#'s properties. And finally, sound advice if you ask me. One should not attempt to "translate" from language A to B by pasting the code and fixing the errors one by one. I don't have much experience I'll grant you that much, but in the experience I do have, I've found this approach counterproductive.

Kindly learn the language you are attempting to use prior to use.

This final bit was also covered earlier. The only proper way to perform this task is to learn the language.

Answer 8

This is one of those discussions where everybody is right - from their own position.

Of course we should be nice to newbies in the field. Plus, we have all been new to our field(s) when we started out, so we all know what it feels like.

And likewise, I think most people would agree that SO is not a programming school where you can walk in right from the street with a 9th grade background and receive personal tutoring without having done something on your own to learn the basics of the language/platform you are asking about.

That said, I know that my mood changes from time to time regarding how much tutoring I am willing to give - or I may even be in a mood to actively nurture a guy who is new to some topic that I find interesting. At the other end of the scale, some days I may be only interested in more advanced questions from other users that help me expand my own horizons.

So to me this boils down to two issues, which are not mutually exclusive:

• It would be helpful for everyone if there were some sort of consensus of what level of basic knowledge is expected, at least for the large language or platform tags.

• Some sort of filtering tool that works like the tags work for content would be really useful. Then people not in the mood for "too basic" questions can just filter them out. When they get in the mood to help some newbies, they can easily filter them back in again for an afternoon of pleasant mentoring.

Regarding the first point: The c++ tag has this in the tag wiki but as this discussion illustrates, it isn't universally accepted. However, a consensus on the matter would help steer comments and meta discussion alike, and provide a resource to point to in case someone challenges an invitation to the asker to gather more information beforehand.

As to the second point, quite a few users already do this in the question itself, in the form of a disclaimer along the lines of "I am a total noob to language X, but …", so some of this seems to come natural to at least a part of the users.

Answer 9

The main issue here is the way we communicate problems to users. We need to respond to users in a soft and friendly tone, rather than directly and harshly tell the user that something is wrong—even if the latter is more truthful.

The following response, while true, is not the best way to tell the user that he/she needs to understand the basics of the programming language:

The problem here is that you have no idea about C++- namely, it does not have an equivalent feature, and even if it did, simply pasting the code like that would never work- for example, this.f() is illegal C++. Kindly learn the language you are attempting to use prior to use.

The way this text is worded, namely the use of words like "you have no idea" and "kindly learn..." can be read as harsh and condescending. I think this can be better written as follows:

It looks like you don't fully understand the C++ language. You should consider reading about the basics of C++ before you start programming. C++ does not have a feature that is directly equivalent to C# properties, and treating C# code as C++ code generally does not work.

It is important to remember that civility is expected of all users, and the fact that the serious programmers on SO have more important matters to attend to does not mean that they can leave a snark, uncivil response.

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The following quotes are from the Help Center.

From https://meta.stackoverflow.com/help/how-to-answer:

Always be polite and have fun

It’s fine to disagree and express concern, but please be civil. There’s a real human being on the other end of that network connection, however misguided they may appear to be. We’re here to learn from our peers, not yell at each other.

From https://meta.stackoverflow.com/help/behavior:

Be nice.

Civility is required at all times; rudeness will not be tolerated. Treat others with the same respect you’d want them to treat you because we’re all here to learn, together. Be tolerant of others who may not know everything you know, and bring your sense of humor.

Answer 10

I have noticed this on occasion (very occasionally), and experienced it once or twice (far rarer) - my experience has been quite positive overall.

If you think an answer is not constructive, downvote it. If you find a comment or an answer particularly unnecessarily rude/not constructive - flag it as such, as you have done.

Looking at the example, I have to say though, that I think Bart's comment was helpful - a link to a good reference. The answer also provided looks to be very helpful.

Answer 11

I think people on both sides of this have made some good points.

My own reaction would be to try to do a little to restore at least a little of the welcoming and "fun" feel of the site that some comments seem to have suggested has declined over time. I think one way to do that would be to at least partially restore the "casual Fridays", where there are a few hours a week where questions that aim a bit more toward fun are tolerated (and perhaps even encouraged). Even if that content adds relatively little value, it can help attract users who are likely to add value.

I also think a lot of the negatively-perceived reactions stem from the sheer volume of questions. I think it's worth thinking in terms of tags that do more to help (especially regular) users find the questions they care about and ignore the ones they don't. And yes, I think that might include revisiting (yet again) the possibility of at least a few meta-tags such as homework. Even without meta-tags, I think (especially for the higher-volume tags) it's worth putting some serious thought into whether we can add some tags that help classify those questions more specifically so people are likely to simply ignore questions they won't care about, leaving them more time to put real effort into making seriously positive contributions to the questions they care the most about. This can also help mitigate the (IMO, minimal) negative effects of the casual Friday types of questions, by making them easy to ignore.

In fairness, I doubt the effects of either of those changes would be purely positive, but I think (especially in the long term) their net gains would outweigh the net losses.

Answer 12

Because you cannot forbid them to do so.
Any kind of oppression from whatever side will just lead to more hostility.
Problem solving morphs into ego defence.

It's just how human perception is. Small things erupts in flames.

'why you aren't doing this?' -> 'you are stupid' -> 'i don`t care about you'

Only thing that helps to reduce this hostility is empathy - honest and careful try to understand and help other person and ability to set free any resentment.

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Only thing that helps to reduce this hostility is empathy
-- Detention works too. – Robert Harvey♦ 4 mins ago

Only when target admits his guilt and sees detention fair.

If person can't see his guilt but thinks that detention must be fair because of authority, that just leads to fear and insecurity.

Anyone who has a dog should have noticed this. If you just beat him up - he might bite you. He might bite you years later for appareantly 'no reason'.

I used the word 'fuck' once as a tool to express my despair for particular technology. Got flamed, edited and whatnot. I don't find that fair neither professional. I find that stupid. Language is just a tool to deliver message.

Not really contributing to SO anymore since then, detention didn't help to me.

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Only when target admits his guilt and sees detention fair -- We certainly hope that people use the time they are suspended to reflect on how they can adapt their behavior to be more constructive members of the community. But you said it yourself: detention didn't help you. Like jail, the real purpose of detention is to remove those participants from the community (hopefully temporarily) so that they don't do any more damage. – Robert Harvey♦ 1 min ago

And jailed community is what you end up with. Already wrote about insecurity.

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so that they don't do any more damage

And since I don't find my detention fair, I read this as:

all your time you've contributed to help people, all those hours are nothing more but damage

And they will. Just like dogs - years later.