-17

I'm putting this as a discussion as I haven't got a solid feature-requestable idea, because it's a complex scenario.
So I'm just putting forward the basic idea and some thoughts I've had, for the community to churn over.


EDIT - I've worded it all differently in response to the feedback, it's the same question and the answers still stand (see revision history for previous):

It's quite frequent (numerous times a day) where I see a question or answer which has a downvote I disagree with. Including when someone has downvoted prior to the post being edited and improved, and, as often is the case, downvoter does not come back to remove their downvote.

And I'm not just talking about meta, where it's mostly about "discussions", I'm talking about technical or professional answers and information, where the votes really do count towards showing if an answer is excellent or terrible, or somewhere in between.

When I see a post with a downvote I disagree with, the only option I have to put forward my opinion, and be able to sort answers/questions in a fair order including my opinion, is to upvote.

But upvote and downvotes are very different, and most certainly not the mirror opposites to each other.
So I cannot upvote because I disagree with a downvote, as upvote is not designed in that way.
And of course it shouldn't be designed that way, as up and down votes serve different purposes, and it all works well. But that brings me to the point of my request for discussion here - to introduce something new which is not basic up and down voting.

Upvoting because I see a bad downvote is not a good idea.
Rep is removed for the downvote and is stating "this post is not good, poor, shows no research", whereas an upvote is my stating that I think the post is good, and deserves +1 vote, and 5 or 10 rep.
But many times I do not want to state what an upvote does, I just want to state something about the downvote.

I also am not wanting a way to say "user who downvoted was wrong" because they are entitled to their opinion and downvote.
I just want a way to cast my opinion that I disagree with the downvote, and currently there is no way to do this.

I can walk away and leave it, but this is not allowing me to vote based on my opinion/preferences in a specific way.
The downvoter got to state "bad post, lose some rep", and I cannot state "post is ok, have 2 reps back".
I can only say "this post is good +1, have a lot more rep".

My upvoting in this manner gives the wrong impression, and upsets the natural vote count based on user opinion. In that I don't actually represent a user who feels +1 vote is in order, I just disagree with the -1 vote.
The post might not be that good and not warrant any upvotes, but at the same time I feel it also doesn't warrant the downvote.


I appreciate we are all entitled to vote up and down as we see fit individually and for whatever reasons we want.
I do not want to remove this ability or privilege.

I just want to be able to cast a vote which in some way which shows my vote is in disagreement with a downvote.

Again, I have no actual way to resolve this, and can see even the basic idea of this is not welcomed by most who have seen the idea (-15 score in a quarter of a day).


Your thoughts and ideas?

9
  • 1
    And how would the vote count show this? Would the DVs be negated completely (i.e., not shown at all) or would there be three different numbers in the post vote count?
    – MTL
    Commented Jul 29, 2015 at 0:51
  • but then I'd need a voting feature to counter people that I think mistakenly used the "remove a downvote feature".. for example, let me cast a downvote that gives -4 , or let me cast two downvotes at -2 each
    – CRABOLO
    Commented Jul 29, 2015 at 1:00
  • 4
    Voting is sometimes complicate, why you are making it even more complicate?
    – OverCoder
    Commented Jul 29, 2015 at 2:22
  • @Shokhet I don't know, as I stated in my question. I only have the basic idea/need to somehow revert what I feel is an unfair or unwarranted downvote.
    – James
    Commented Jul 29, 2015 at 10:41
  • @Dronehinge Not really, we already have that - a downvote. If someone downvotes, and someone else counters that downvote (my idea above), and then someone else thinks the counter was wrong, they downvote. This is natural. At the moment, instead of "countering" the downvote I have to "upvote" and this is not the same thing, as per my question. I was hoping others might have better ideas, but it seems everyone has jumped on this as "a terrible idea" based on face value, rather than "let me think about a way that could work and be useful".
    – James
    Commented Jul 29, 2015 at 10:45
  • @OverCoder How is voting complicated? You upvote, downvote, or don't vote.
    – James
    Commented Jul 29, 2015 at 10:47
  • -16 huh, I sometimes obviously just don't get it here. I can currently effectively counter a downvote by upvoting. You downvote, put a negative count to the users score and remove 2 rep. I upvote, and add a positive count to the users score (reverting your downvote) and I give them 5 or 10 rep, reverting your giving them 2 negative rep. What I'm discussing in my question happens now, with upvotes, it's just not the right way to do it.
    – James
    Commented Jul 29, 2015 at 17:23
  • 1
    @James If you upvote posts that you think should not be upvoted, you're the one who is doing it wrong.
    – user259867
    Commented Jul 29, 2015 at 20:26
  • @NormalHuman I never stated nor insinuated I upvote posts that should not be upvoted. If I believe a post should not have been downvoted, and currently can only upvote to address that, then my upvoting is my decision based on reasons. And to be fair, probably more reasons than some people will use their votes for. Regardless, there are no rules to up or down vote (good etiquette of course).
    – James
    Commented Jul 29, 2015 at 21:20

2 Answers 2

25

tl;dr: you don't feel strongly enough about some posts to vote on them, but you feel strongly enough about how other people vote to want to control them.

That's not really kosher.

Each member in good standing gets at most one vote per post, to use as they see fit. What gives you - or anyone else - the right to tell me that my opinion doesn't matter? Either you have an opinion of your own and are willing to express it, or... You have to learn to trust your peers.

Related: Should we reduce rep bonus for upvotes on posts with a negative score?

8
  • It's not about "not feeling strongly enough to vote" it's specifically that the upvote is not a "direct counter" for a downvote. Rep is very different, and upvote means "I think this post is good/deserves +1 vote and 5 or 10 rep" when I do not, I just specifically think "this downvote is wrong". I care enough I want to counter the unfair downvote, but an upvote is not a good method to do that, and otherwise I have no other options
    – James
    Commented Jul 29, 2015 at 11:14
  • In another answer you said you downvote when "Answer is okay, but not as good as another one which currently has fewer votes". What gives you the right to downvote a post based on another post being quality, and not just that post you downvoted warranted a downvote? The same right we all have to vote as we see fit (it's an old post, maybe you don't anymore to be fair). However, if I see your or any unwarranted downvote my only option is to upvote, which is not "disagreeing with a downvote" as upvoting is stating "I think this post is good, deserves +1 vote and 10 reps" when I do not.
    – James
    Commented Jul 29, 2015 at 11:18
  • 3
    The same thing that gives you the right to vote how you choose, @James: I get one vote, same as everyone else's vote, to use as I please.
    – Shog9
    Commented Jul 29, 2015 at 17:36
  • "I get one vote, same as everyone else's vote, to use as I please" I absolutely agree and I do not want to remove that. I want a way to use my one vote to state my disagreeing with a downvote. Maybe I'm missing something, but I don't see the issue with my idea. People still get their 1 vote (downvote) and I get mine (1 counter downvote). Your answer doesn't really to put forward any argument towards my actual idea, just a different angle altogether about my voting habits and asserting our rights to one vote. The site has lots of conflicting opinions, in reviews, flags, answers, and votes.
    – James
    Commented Aug 10, 2015 at 22:56
  • "you don't feel strongly enough about some posts to vote on them" yes I do, to countervote a downvote. Just because I do not think a post is worthy of an upvote or downvote either way, does not mean I don't passionately/strongly disagree with a downvote, I just don't have the tools to do anything about it, other than upvote which pollutes the voting (and why I don't do this, and hence my question) :)
    – James
    Commented Aug 10, 2015 at 22:59
  • 1
    You want the ability to negate my vote without voting yourself. Doesn't matter what name you give this; that's what you're proposing here: the ability to indicate that a post shouldn't have been voted on at all. You want your weak "meh" to override someone else's strong opinion of a post's worth. Regarding the edit you made... If all you want to do is record your opinion, then leave a comment. Again, if you don't feel strongly enough to argue for the merit of the post, then you really don't have anything to say at all do you?
    – Shog9
    Commented Aug 11, 2015 at 15:27
  • Here's a perfect example. I don't feel the post deserves an upvote nor downvote, I'm neutral. However someone has downvoted, entirely their opinion and right to do so, but I disagree with the downvote, as per my right. I'd like my right and my single vote to be able to somehow signify against the downvote. Not take away the users right to downvote, just "somehow" a vote which shows I'm against the downvote (an upvote is wrong because of rep difference etc). Again, I made this discussion as I have no ideas of a way to accomplish this .
    – James
    Commented Aug 18, 2015 at 21:12
  • And, I'll stop humping your leg now...
    – James
    Commented Aug 18, 2015 at 21:12
5

The center of your question is "counter the downvote" somehow. I should first clear my stand that I'm in disagreement with all the points in the question (revision 1), though I didn't downvote or upvote your question of course. :)

The purpose of voting (as described here and seen at vote up/down indicators) is to push the post up or down based on its usefulness, efforts put into it and quality of it. It is written that :

Voting up a question or answer signals to the rest of the community that a post is interesting, well-researched, and useful, while voting down a post signals the opposite: that the post contains wrong information, is poorly researched, or fails to communicate information.

(Emphasis mine)

You shouldn't vote to counter a vote but to push the content based on its merit. If you find that the post is qualified to get your upvote, then simply upvote it (irrespective of the multitude of any up/downvotes on it; which would automatically counter one vote). Otherwise, simply leave a comment (I use it):

Users: Please consider explaining the reason for downvoting the post, or suggest the improvements that needs to be done to fix the issues you noticed. Unless told here, we can't expect the Poster to improve the current post, let alone expect him/her to refrain from making the same mistake in the future.

If you feel strongly obliged to counter the downvote, then do the rightful thing: move your thoughts to site's Meta and ask (kindly; with constructive criticism) the Community what could be the reason or why the post is getting downvoted? (Be prepared for downvotes on such Meta posts then.)

Both of these methods would work if the users who downvoted the post strongly cares for the site (they would feel obliged to reach you for the concerned case), and are not just trolling around there or doesn't understand the meaning of voting, in which case, you're in a lost battle.

In the event you start to find many posts where you feel that the downvotes are unnecessary and your comments/meta posts are not helping out, then simply take a leave from the site to relax, and come back after some time, because those users (who're trolling; don't understand voting) should possibly learn in that time frame. It's simple, and effective.

Did I mention that you should also consider Skipping the question? It works wonder if the Poster hasn't shown around meanwhile.

Further reading:

12
  • "You shouldn't vote to counter a vote but to push the content based on its merit" I get what you are saying, but this is too simplified. Many people vote based on current votes. I do. If a question on Stack Overflow in PHP tag has 2 upvotes, and it's an "ok" question and a new user I'll leave it as is. Same scenario but 0 votes I'll upvote (because new user and took some time to write a good answer and not just post "giz teh code" etc). So what do I do when: "Post is ok, doesn't deserve a downvote, but someone has (or few people have)"? I don't want to upvote as that is a specific thing.
    – James
    Commented Jul 29, 2015 at 11:41
  • "In the event you start to find many posts where you feel that the downvotes are unnecessary and your comments/meta posts are not helping out, then simply take a leave from the site to relax, and come back after some time" you talk as if I'm new here, I have 11K rep and have been around here a few years :) I don't need time to relax, I need a way to counter a downvote I feel is unfair, and upvoting is not a direct reversal of a downvote. Asking on Meta is pointless, chances are the downvoter won't see the meta post, even if they did they're not going to comment/answer are they?
    – James
    Commented Jul 29, 2015 at 11:43
  • what do I do when: "Post is ok, doesn't deserve a downvote, but someone has (or few people have)"? -- I think I cleared this point by "posting a comment on the post asking the downvoters to respond". I have 11K rep and have been around here a few years -- yet you've not understood why voting should/shouldn't be done. :) I need a way to counter a downvote I feel is unfair -- I made myself clear I suppose. No countering please, it's unnecessary thing to do.
    – 286110
    Commented Jul 29, 2015 at 15:43
  • Most important thing is if your peer(s) has downvoted something then assume that they're aware of their actions and they possibly did it considering the reason downvote is meant for. By countering their vote you're simply telling the people that they were wrong and you're alone right (know that it's possible you've missed a mistake or your standard to judge the usefulness/quality varies from your peers, could be low/high, I can't tell you). That's why I said, if you feel the post is qualified for your upvote, then simply do it, or just skip it.
    – 286110
    Commented Jul 29, 2015 at 15:48
  • 'I think I cleared this point by "posting a comment on the post asking the downvoters to respond" ' I think you;ve missed the entire point of my question here. "ask downvoters to explain their downvotes" is 1) not what I want, I want to vote against a downvote, and 2) it is futile asking for downvoter responses. Utterly pointless in that even if in the tiny slim chance they saw my comment, they are not likely to respond
    – James
    Commented Jul 29, 2015 at 17:15
  • "you've not understood why voting should/shouldn't be done" I have no idea why you would say that. I'm debating an entirely new function, if it's a bad idea fine, but that has no bearing on my knowledge of current voting systems, nor the ethics or politics behind using them
    – James
    Commented Jul 29, 2015 at 17:18
  • "No countering please, it's unnecessary thing to do" so do you agree downvoting is wrong? Or upvoting is wrong? No? Why not if you feel I cannot "vote" to state "I disagree with the downvote"? I can now, with an upvote! I reverse the -2 rep from the downvote by giving either 5 or 10 back to the author, and I counter the downvote by providing an upvote. I can now counter a downvote by upvoting, it's just not the best way to do it! Hence my question here. Thanks for your feedback though :)
    – James
    Commented Jul 29, 2015 at 17:19
  • I should give you an example. I edited this question. There was a -1 on it. No comment was left for the Poster. After editing I posted a comment mentioning what could be the possible reason the post received a downvote. I personally felt that downvoting was unwarranted there because it is not meant as a substitute for communication and editing. I was tempted to counter that downvote but I didn't because I didn't consider the post deserves my upvote. Simple as that. See vote count here. :)
    – 286110
    Commented Jul 29, 2015 at 17:34
  • "I was tempted to counter that downvote but I didn't because I didn't consider the post deserves my upvote" Thanks for arguing my point for me :) You did nothing because you do not have the tools. If, however, you could "vote" to state "disagree with this downvote" and your "vote" added 2 rep and a +1 vote, is that not perhaps better? As it is you "walked away" from a situation you were (be honest) not entirely happy about...you nearly upvoted. So perhaps with a better/more suitable option you might have used it?
    – James
    Commented Jul 29, 2015 at 17:37
  • 1
    I see what you're getting into. In that case I would rather differentiate between our normal voting, and the agree/disagreement for the votes on the post. Let's not confuse other people seeing the post and affect the real voting system. Would it be fine if a small counter/icon is created that simply tells that somebody disagrees with the downvote (and upvote ofcourse) on the post. Mixing your new function with the current pattern can affect the quality of post rising up/down in the system. So may be you wanna brainstorm on this part, and then edit your question.
    – 286110
    Commented Jul 29, 2015 at 17:42
  • Adding new voting mechanism, and counters, is not going to be implemented on Stack Exchange. It's all been debated and suggested many times before, with some very good and highly upvoted feature-requests. That is why I put my question here, for everyone to brain storm. Seems people have just read it and on their first thought dismissed it, which is quite odd, to get 16 downvotes, since I don't have an idea, and haven't proposed something. -16 asking the community for their thoughts. Nice.
    – James
    Commented Jul 29, 2015 at 17:50
  • -16 means at least 16 people disagree with it as a concept. I know I do.
    – Rory Alsop
    Commented Sep 22, 2015 at 19:01

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