So ok, it has been "decided" that subjective questions go on programmers SE. Can we please make an exception and promote it right now out of beta, so to enable migration of questions ? The thing is

  • annoying, people get pissed off because their question is closed
  • fragmenting, the community answers and reacts or plus vote many interesting questions way before the 5 whack-a-close intervene to close the question (which is promptly reopened afterwards, because it's an interesting question nevertheless). This fragments the knowledge and the community, have the question posted in two places.
  • stupid, because programming questions are programming questions, subjective or not. But this is my opinion. Someone decided differently but at least, please let's do something to fix the issue.

Now let's the downvoting begin.

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    -1 for "let the downvoting begin" – sth Oct 30 '10 at 19:10
  • @sth :) ... like I care ;) – Stefano Borini Oct 30 '10 at 19:11
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    -1 Right now the close-vote-trolls are kept in check by the reopen-sane-persons, but you can't counter the move-to-pse-trolls that way – Andomar Oct 30 '10 at 19:44
  • I don't know. I totally disagree with this "PSE for subjective" idea, but if this has to be the way, at least let's please speed up the process so that we can migrate. – Stefano Borini Oct 30 '10 at 19:48
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    "close-vote-trolls" and "reopen-sane-persons". How very open-minded of you. Why in the world is it trolling to say "PSE specifically exists to handle subjective SO questions -- please ask your subjective SO question there". It's like going to an oil change place, asking them to fix your engine, them telling you "sorry, we only do oil changes, you have to go to this other place", and you saying "OMG YOU TROLL, FIX MY ENGINE HERE!" – Michael Mrozek Oct 30 '10 at 20:33
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    @Michael: Ok, then please let people have a street that brings you from the oil changer to the mechanic. Like, right now. – Stefano Borini Oct 30 '10 at 21:01
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    @Stefano They're building it, it'll be ready in ~31 days. That doesn't mean the oil changer is required to fix your engine in the meantime – Michael Mrozek Oct 30 '10 at 21:03
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    @Michael: It does not take 31 days, it's just that they decided it takes 31 days (at least, queue allowing). Given that PSE is not a regular SE, but a splitting of the SO community into two kind of questions, its existence is parallel to SO by its very nature. – Stefano Borini Oct 30 '10 at 21:06
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    @Stefano It's not "splitting SO", that's just how you guys choose to see it. It's deciding that we're tired of closing your subjective questions on SO; so here's a separate site you can ask them on. They were never on-topic on SO, SO's FAQ has said subjective questions are off-topic for ages – Michael Mrozek Oct 30 '10 at 21:39
  • @Michael : ok, is a question about migration of C++ to C for SO or PSE ? Why did it get closed ? if PSE is for Programmers, is the argument about migration from C++ to C a programmer question or a coding question ? What about design? If I ask a question where the answer is objective (what is a good design to have only one instance of an object) or subjective (what is a good design for managing multiple databases) how can I know if it's subjective or objective before asking the question ? – Stefano Borini Oct 30 '10 at 21:46
  • @Michael : According to PSE FAQ the site is for practical algorithms and data structures, and design patterns? aren't these coding ? If I ask "how is a linked list structured?" on SO will stay there, will it be migrated? It's a coding question that admits one correct answer, so it should stay on SO, but it's also a data structure question which is for PSE, according to the FAQ. Where on earth do I have to ask that question ? How on earth the whack-a-close will decide without any doubt the destiny of that question ? – Stefano Borini Oct 30 '10 at 21:48
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    @Stefano Well of course the FAQ gets confusing if you selectively quote it. It actually says "Programmers - Stack Exchange is for expert programmers who are interested in subjective discussions on software development. This can include topics such as:". So a subjective question about data structures belongs on PSE. I think Robert's answer is extremely confusing; SOIS tried to redefine what PSE is for after the beta started, without changing the FAQ, so it no longer makes any sense. Until it's clarified I'm going to keep using each site for its intended purpose – Michael Mrozek Oct 30 '10 at 23:31
  • @Michael : ok so who decides what is subjective and what is not ? if I ask "how can I improve the access speed of a linked list" is it subjective or not ? there are tons of potential choices on how to improve the performance of a linked list. Everyone will have his own solution. Is it subjective ? How do we deal with the fact that SO FAQ itself allows "good subjective" questions ? What if the question was "How did you improve the access speed of a linked list?". was it more subjective ? I'm sorry. Nothing makes sense. – Stefano Borini Oct 30 '10 at 23:48
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    @Stefano The community decides, that's the whole point; we have a built-in system for voting if a question is subjective. If you're not sure just post the question, and if it gets closed as subjective you have your answer – Michael Mrozek Oct 31 '10 at 0:38
  • @Michael : exactly, the community, but the community is acting with opposite forces. that is the problem. In addition, it's not the opinion of the community. it is the opinion of 5 people of the community that decides, even if 30 or more upvoted the question as insightful – Stefano Borini Oct 31 '10 at 8:15

Can we please make an exception and promote it right now out of beta, so to enable migration of questions?

This is not the purpose of beta. Beta is to see if a community can survive. Has programmers met the survival criteria? Absolutely. However, we need to remember that after the initial influx of visitors, most sites tend to have a majority of their users begin to lose interest. This is why betas are 90+ days long—to ensure that after that happens, the community doesn't die. Considering there's at least a month left for Programmers before it leaves beta, it's a bit early to promote it immediately.

Then there's the fact that it makes extra work for Jin, who is already stressed out with site designs.

Bottom line: Relax. Stack Overflow has survived for two years with subjective questions being closed. An extra month won't hurt it.

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    To be fair, I am beginning to lose interest in SO when the whack-a-closer started closing down interesting questions. If PSE is made for subjective SO questions, the community for PSE/SO is the same, thus defeating the point of a 90-days long beta. – Stefano Borini Oct 30 '10 at 19:51
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    @Stefano The community is absolutely not the same, that's the whole point. I couldn't care less about questions like "What are your experiences moving from C++ to C?"; it's not the purpose of SO and if it was I never would've started spending time on SO to begin with. You guys have a nice, shiny new community to ask those questions on, a community I don't visit because I don't want to read those questions; leaving them posted on SO and PSE completely defeats the point – Michael Mrozek Oct 30 '10 at 20:30
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    @Michael I have no interest in questions on php or C# either, but I am not chanting to have a dedicated site for every programming language so I can join only those communities having languages I care of. And I really, really cannot believe that if you are a C++ programmer you have no interest in that question. – Stefano Borini Oct 30 '10 at 20:58

You made the same mistake I did. See this answer by Robert to my similar question.

  • I am pretty sure that this distinction is so small, confusing and a matter of speculation that people will start asking "where should I post this answer?". Also, most people won't know the difference and just post, being slapped closes in the face and being forced to register to another SE (like we didn't have enough stuff to check already). I am also waiting for the moment when a question will be closed on SO and sent to PSE, where it will be closed and sent to SO. – Stefano Borini Oct 30 '10 at 21:30
  • whack-a-close don't know the difference and they will just redirect to PSE anything that looks potentially subjective (e.g. anything that allows more than one answer). Stuff will fly here and there just for the colliding opinions of those who close as subjective, those who close as move to PSE and those who reopen. Take your popcorn and soda. What we have here is a big chaos unfolding. Congrats. someone managed to fk up a great idea. – Stefano Borini Oct 30 '10 at 21:33
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    @Stefano I don't know who started the whole "I am sore wrothed, my post was closed" stuff; it's not a personal affront if your question was closed, it's just in the wrong place. The SO devs made it easy to the point of triviality to use other SE sites -- there isn't even any registration, you just log in with your OpenID and everything works automatically – Michael Mrozek Oct 30 '10 at 23:28
  • @Michael : I don't know, but my policy starting today is that I will just post on SO, and if someone is bothered by the post he will move it to PSE. I don't give a dime about posting to PSE and thinking "how these people will consider my question, subjective, objective, potentially subjective with a hint of objectiveness?". IMHO the whole existence of PSE is redundant, but if we really need its existence, at least make the integration happen fast. And no, I haven't posted any question which was closed. I am just annoyed by a situation nobody really needed. – Stefano Borini Oct 30 '10 at 23:39

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