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Currently, Community ♦ automatically flags posts under certain circumstances. These include:

  • Multiple deletions in a short time
  • Multiple edits of old posts in a short time
  • Multiple posts of the exact same wording in a short time

Should it also flag multiple votes of one person by another in a short time? Either upvotes or downvotes, since both are equally suspect.

One negative is that so far community flags are visible to 10k users; I think this particular one should be moderator-only.

The threshold is also tricky to deal with; should it only take into account a single day? Should 30 votes over two days be flagged? Should 15 votes in one day? What about 10?

Thoughts?

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  • I think I spy two questions here
    – jcolebrand
    Commented Jul 13, 2011 at 22:29
  • 5
    Yes vote from me. Just knowing that this information is more visible to moderators might act as a deterrent to serial downvoters and puppeteers. I think we'd probably need to establish some guidelines on what action to take in each case. Commented Jul 13, 2011 at 22:31
  • 9
    @Bill I have a handy flowchart for deciding what to do in a whole host of SE problems. All the arrows end in "ban them" Commented Jul 13, 2011 at 22:52
  • @Michael Mrozek: Now you've got me curious. What problems on SE couldn't be solved with banning?
    – McCannot
    Commented Jul 14, 2011 at 1:38
  • No vote (at all, not -1) from me, as I don't know what the hell we're supposed to do with this information.
    – user1228
    Commented Jul 14, 2011 at 13:27

6 Answers 6

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Note that suspicious vote patterns are already available to moderators, from the Links tab. This doesn't show quite as much detail as this feature request would, but it does give a sense for if a particular user is voting on another user a lot.

Community could raise a flag when a user crosses the threshold to be on that list. Most mods don't seem to know about or regularly check that list, so if it were automatically brought to our attention when somebody gets on the list, then that would have the same effect as this feature request.

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  • I think increasing visibility of that list is a good idea no matter what. I find that I check it when I remember, but it's easy to forget about it, since it's a bit off the beaten path. A link from the flag page or main mod tools page would be handy.
    – Adam Lear StaffMod
    Commented Jul 14, 2011 at 3:29
  • Yes, this. I want more visibility for the trigger events.
    – jcolebrand
    Commented Jul 14, 2011 at 17:13
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Should it also flag multiple votes of one person by another in a short time? Either upvotes or downvotes, since both are equally suspect.

Up votes should have a significantly higher bar, I think. Here's why:

  • Truly terrible posters tend to be easily recognizable as such, and as such should have no trouble acquiring down votes from myriad sources; serially down voting a bunch of things already at low score isn't adding much value.

  • A single person serially down-voting someone who is a merely mediocre-to-poor poster is more likely to be a grudge; there's no shortage of mediocre posts to vote down if one is inclined to enforcing high standards, so going after one person is frivolous at best.

  • On the other hand, there are plenty of excellent posters who focus on niche topics; there may be a limited number of people who can appreciate their posts, and it's easy in a bout of enthusiasm to go "hey, that was neat, I wonder what else this person has posted?" and end up voting them up repeatedly for wholly correct reasons. Perhaps I'm biased (spending most of my time in niche tags) but I care more about rewarding high-quality contributors than catching the low-level abuses this could be mistaken for.

  • I would imagine that egregious cases, e.g. multiple sock-puppets active over an extended period of time voting up the puppeteer, are rather easy to distinguish from borderline cases.

One negative is that so far community flags are visible to 10k users; I think this particular one should be moderator-only.

Yes, for the simple reason that most people have some idea of "fairness" that they tend to apply without thinking. Publicising a list of serial voting targets is very likely to result in a steady stream of pointless "compensation" votes, most of which would probably be picked up as suspicious as well. Hooray for feedback loops! Insert obvious "stack overflow" joke here, etc. No, I don't think 10k users in general can be expected to know better, unfortunately.

The threshold is also tricky to deal with; should it only take into account a single day? Should 30 votes over two days be flagged? Should 15 votes in one day? What about 10?

A much better heuristic would probably be to look at the sequence of pages the suspicious voter visited, if that were tracked (which it probably isn't, at least not in a useful way for this purpose). Serial voting requires finding things to vote; there are lots of ways to do that, and almost none of them involve looking through lists of questions or searching based on a topic.

Of course, any such heuristics should probably be placed in the same neither-confirm-nor-deny category as the quality filter and such, to prevent gaming (I can think of at least three or four easy-to-implement heuristics off the top of my head, but the less said the better).

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  • do you see the initial point here as serially upvoted or just highly upvoted? highly upvoted is already exposed on the users profile anyways. Just curious which way you were going there.
    – jcolebrand
    Commented Jul 14, 2011 at 15:56
  • @jcolebrand: Er, sorry, I'm not quite certain what you're asking, probably because I need another cup of coffee. At no point was I talking about highly-upvoted users, though; my argument is that there are valid reasons to do what looks like serial upvoting on a user with low average scores, if they contributed a lot of high-quality material on an obscure topic.
    – McCannot
    Commented Jul 14, 2011 at 16:05
  • Truly terrible posters tend to be easily recognizable as such, and as such should have no trouble acquiring down votes from myriad sources; serially down voting a bunch of things already at low score isn't adding much value. <-- seemed like you weren't focusing on the serial part of upvote behavior following talk of upvotes at the beginning of your post.
    – jcolebrand
    Commented Jul 14, 2011 at 16:21
  • I would imagine that egregious cases, e.g. multiple sock-puppets active over an extended period of time voting up the puppeteer, are rather easy to distinguish from borderline cases. fwiw, there are tools in the system to detect this
    – jcolebrand
    Commented Jul 14, 2011 at 16:21
  • @jcolebrand: Ok, now I see. I was arguing that there should be a higher bar for catching serial upvotes, and the first two points are trying to justify the lower bar for serial downvotes. You're right, that is kind of confusing. Sorry! Here's a summary: "serial downvotes are probably either useless or unfair, some serial upvoting is legit, excessive upvote abuse is probably obvious". Does that help? And yes, I figured that upvote puppets are probably caught by other means as well.
    – McCannot
    Commented Jul 14, 2011 at 16:26
  • Aye, it does clarify. Yay comments ;)
    – jcolebrand
    Commented Jul 14, 2011 at 17:12
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    @jcolebrand: Yes, a situation admirably resolved by a gentlemanly exchange of information. Top hats and monocles all around!
    – McCannot
    Commented Jul 14, 2011 at 17:18
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Should it also flag multiple votes of one person by another in a short time? Either upvotes or downvotes, since both are equally suspect.

One negative is that so far community flags are visible to 10k users; I think this particular one should be moderator-only.

Since there are a lot of times where people can say "hey I think I was serially downvoted! Wah!" (and I've been one of them) then I think it would be good that a 10ker could check the record and say "yes, there was a flag for that" and then it's up to a mod to investigate if that's a problem.

Do I also see potential for abuse? Yes.

Do I also see people begging to know what flags their own accounts show? Yes. Do I think any meta questions posted about that should be closed straightaway? Yes. That's something better handled through an email or perhaps in chat.


also, fwiw, I voted yes.

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I'm on the fence with this issue.

On the one hand, it could be looked at as a deterrent for excessive upvoting or serial downvoting (i.e., bad voting patterns). But on the other hand, doesn't the daily vote-fraud-protection scripts already handle that?

My bigger concern is that by doing this, voting is no longer anonymous. Only the team should be allowed access to this info as they are the ones maintaining this data. Wasn't that the whole point? Viewing another user's rep decreases due to them downvoting was removed as it indirectly identified them as a downvoter.

I have faith in the mods that they'll do the right thing, but this is not something that they should have to police, only the higher-ups. Yeah, this may mean that it would mean less eyes to look out for this but so what? It's only ever really a problem when a normal user notices and reports it in meta or a team member sees how ever they see it.

I'm leaning towards a no here unless there's data to back up the idea that this is a major issue that's happening every day.

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  • This would be more on detecting and flagging the vote patterns instead of actually showing which posts were voted on. There is still some layer of abstraction.
    – random
    Commented Jul 14, 2011 at 0:46
  • To some degree, serial down voting is inherently a problem, because it's toxic to a healthy community atmosphere. A relatively new user who gets a pile of unjustified revenge votes when the rep hit from that is still noticeable could feel very discouraged from further participation.
    – McCannot
    Commented Jul 14, 2011 at 1:42
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I think we have to be careful about automating things which could be triggered by legitimate user activity. I'm far more likely to read and thus vote on my partners questions and answers than any other individual on Stack Exchange, but that doesn't make me her sock puppet. I still apply the same voting criteria to her posts that I would apply to anyone else.

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I say yes, but would need to be a moderator only view.

It wouldn't be information that would always need to be acted upon, but it brings any potential activity to watch into the light more. It doesn't have to be a 100% accurate flag to be useful to moderators.

I love improvements that increase the organization and make finding moderator only work easier.

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