New answers tagged discussion
0
Just a few quick remarks. I apologize if they overlap with other answers. Given that there are so many of them, it's difficult to keep the overview.
This is too much red tape (bureaucratic). Consider simplifying the whole process.
One way of simplifying would be to just state contracts and leave the implementation details to either be developed ad-hoc or ...
2
If this is the case, is there any possible way to move forward and
somehow resolve the issue?
They just need to appologize, re-mod, and then apply their own procedure if they think Monica did something warranting a demodding.
My stance for the last point is nuanced, as Monica didn't violated the CoC, as it was not out and in the end using real life ...
5
SE could reinstate Monica's moderator status
SE has now been accused of several wrongs against Monica:
Falsely accusing Monica of violating the CoC
Falsely accusing Monica of being rude to members of the community who prefer non-gendered pronouns
Unfairly removing Monica's moderator status
Not following the procedure in removing Monica's moderator status
...
4
Are there any possible actions that Stack Exchange can take towards [...]
without doing anything that their legal counsel would advise against?
Sure. Apologize for removing her with complete disregards of the existing process and reinstate her without any process or need for appeal.
I don't think there is any legal recourse, because nobody ever said it's ...
27
There are no actions short of reinstating Monica and apologizing that will make me, personally, able to trust SE. No matter how much more attention they pay to meta, or how seriously the take feedback, this is not something that I can get past.
If SE is unwilling to admit wrongdoing, what hope do we have that people will be treated fairly in the future? ...
1
I've been awaiting to see the new process
and now when I have seen this I'm awaiting for more moderators to step down.
Maybe if they all step down due to the complete lack of any respect towards them nor any acknowledgement of their hard work then S.E. inc will finally understand the sh*t they're doing.
They also can ask LGBT+++++++++++ community to work ...
6
In U1 you write:
Avoid volunteering pronouns for third parties who have not indicated them on Stack Exchange (e.g. you know them in person) unless they are general knowledge.
I am not sure I understand the phrase volunteering pronouns for third parties correctly (I do not speak English natively). Am I right to assume that you mean a person I know does ...
8
Thank you for adding more clarification to the new FAQ and CoC. I'm posting this with as much good faith and respect as I can muster, and as you read it, please keep an open mind. I do not hate people. Anybody. I welcome you with open arms!
I am very concerned that this still contains text based on "We are setting the social standards here, so if you have ...
4
On: What processes exist to issue formal warnings or remove moderators?
The process as written is protecting SE, and not the volunteers.
So, how can it be made better? This process needs to be public, transparent and MUST have Audi alteram partem. Why?
Public
SE Moderators are voted into office. They are leaders within their site. They are publicly ...
1
Why 2 processes for removal of a moderator ?
The 'Moderator Conduct Review Process' boils down to "Act first, then go through reinstation process".
If the request comes from a user/StackExchange employee or a moderator, the process is not the same, why ?
The starting point is the same, a mail to contact@stackexchange.com, depending on whom wrote the mail ...
-4
The point I made in an answer to Gareth's post still stands: if you want to communicate clearly, you should avoid or define neologisms. In particular, it shouldn't be necessary to guess the meaning of misgendering from context (Edge cases, A2).
2
The edge cases may seem to specify in a less restrictive way how one should act and seem to take away a lot of the previously existing compelled speech and conflicts. You might even think that compelled speech is gone.
But, it is mostly confusing language that is used in answers to FAQ 3 and FAQ 4.
My religion tells me that people can't change their ...
0
Q: How can I state my pronouns in my profile and at the same time indictate in a binding way that I do not consider them being ignored to fall under the CoC?
My pronouns are se and sim but I don't care if anybody uses them or not. Do as you please. Not using my pronouns does not violate the CoC.
How can I forbid mods and staff to act against and punish ...
4
A few tweaks, and this CoC change could be beneficial to numerous minority groups across SE
It's stated:
1. Am I forbidden to express my opinion about this?
... please take
special care and frame [objective answers] respectfully and politely — please be
aware that many things you might want to say may be extremely
distressing to some readers, ...
6
Q: Am I expected to remember every time someone corrects me on a pronoun in case I have to interact with them again later?
Like I commented in the (now deleted) previous FAQ: I don't care to remember every interaction I've had on this site in case I run into them again. I don't care about the person behind the post, I only care that there is a good answer ...
10
I am new to this topic in general (about genders and pronouns) and it's all very confusing.
Can I write to any person using "you"? For example, will the comment: "You have XY problem, do this instead" be appropriate to anyone? The Code of Conduct and the FAQ repeatedly simply says "pronouns", but it seems to mean only "third-person pronouns" (he/she/it and ...
10
I note that M2 states:
M2. I'm a moderator. I often have to refer to other users, I can't choose which ones I have to refer to, and often it isn't feasible to avoid pronouns. So do I really have to use pronouns I find uncomfortable?
Yes. As a moderator, you're held to a higher standard and are expected to set a positive example for your community. ...
0
After reading the earlier CoC, I wasn't understanding what was this fuss about. But this thread here is very useful and clear for a non-native English speaker like me. Also the tone and clarity of the wordings used is easily understandable like mentioned by others.
This is good move in my opinion.
-4
This is an answer praising the newly updated FAQ.
I believe that leaving positive feedback is also needed. It is all too easy to criticise and find faults and ignore the positive changes. You cannot please everybody but in this instance, the team has found a good compromise. We therefore begin mending bridges, and that means acknowledging positive progress ...
7
8. Isn't all this causing lots of inconvenience to everyone for the sake of a minority?
No. One thing is required of you: that when someone states their
pronouns you take notice and respect their request. We also recommend
that you don't make assumptions about people's gender and that you
prefer gender-neutral language when unsure. Using gender-...
18
Am I obligated to find opportunities to use pronouns?
Not at all! If you don’t need to use pronouns to say something, that’s fine. We ask that you use pronouns as you would naturally. If you’d use them in a sentence, use them; if not, don’t. Problems arise when a person or group feels singled out by having pronouns used for other people but not for ...
0
What if someone wants some nonstandard pronouns that I don't even know how to use?
Then just do your best. Again, honest mistakes are fine. If you are directly corrected, adjust moving forward. If you're not sure how to form that pronoun, you may find guidance here. If you're struggling, that's common. It can take a little effort but it's appreciated....
27
4. I find it really distressing to use pronouns in a way I think is wrong. Is there really no alternative?
You can often avoid using
pronouns altogether. It's actually pretty rare to need third-person
pronouns at all on most Stack Exchange sites. But conspicuously
avoiding using pronouns for one group of people while using them
normally for ...
5
I typically prefer not to disclose my IRL gender/sex, but, since the post specifically calls for trans and nonbinary persons to chime in: I am a nonbinary-ID'd person taking cross-sex hormones, making me both trans and nonbinary.
(Btw, if anyone's curious, I am actually not a fan of the concept of gender as a free-floating essence separate from either ...
4
It would be rude to refer to a man as "she" or a woman as "he". Some people are neither men nor women and might, for instance, ask to be referred to as "they".
.. It could be rude: a transvestite may self-define as a man but when in drag use the pronoun 'she'.
I still feel like you're missing the point and a bit hypocritical because "trying to preemptively ...
16
I don't like using 'they' for singular and try to recast to avoid it wherever possible. If unavoidable, can we use 'one' instead?
I'm aware the two pronouns are not directly interchangeable & that 'they' has perfectly unambiguous meaning when used appropriately, for example, from comments:
User123 has a problem. They ought to ask about it on Meta.
...
42
Since all answers to the previous FAQ have been deleted and this concern isn't addressed in the new FAQ I guess I'll ask again:
How do you think this is going to work for regular (Stack Overflow) users?
Regular users don't read Codes of Conduct, FAQs or other guidelines. We know this because thousands of garbage questions come in every day.
And for 99% ...
7
Allow me to answer from the other side of things.
I do not (to the best of my ability) conflate a person with a policy or a principle. With the exception of this recent hub-bub, you will not find me opining overmuch on trans or gay issues. I oppose a socio-cultural agenda focusing on these things, but it's certainly no justification for me or anybody else ...
1
You advise that questions and answers should be free of references to pronouns.
Do you plan on introducing a feature for making one's pronouns more accessible?
I mean by this, for example, a colored dot near the avatar or an expandable card with a visual cue when there is something to expand.
8
status-completed
Is the new CoC and FAQ about gender pronouns or about pronouns in general?
Reading What does the Code of Conduct say about gender pronouns? it is focused on gender:
The Code of Conduct has two direct references to gender pronouns:
“Use stated pronouns (when known).”
“Prefer gender-neutral language when uncertain.”
But CoC is not ...
6
6. What if someone wants some nonstandard pronouns that I don't even know how to use?
Then just do your best. Again, honest mistakes are fine. If you are directly corrected, adjust moving forward. If you're not sure how to form that pronoun, you may find guidance here. If you're struggling, that's common. It can take a little effort but it's appreciated....
5
I think these two entries would be easier to understand if examples of sites within SE network where these adjustments are relevant are provided.
1. Am I forbidden to express my opinion about this?
In most contexts, your opinions about gender are off-topic. Some of our sites may have topics where gender is part of the subject and may be a valid ...
8
Probably too minor to really warrant a proper answer, but I can't find a good place to add this as a comment ... From Edge cases:
2. But the free choice of language is important to me. This rule impairs my freedom of speech.
By participating here you're agreeing to treat others with politeness. That includes not insulting people (even if you ...
22
Am I obligated to find opportunities to use pronouns?
Not at all! If you don’t need to use pronouns to say something, that’s
fine. We ask that you use pronouns as you would naturally. If you’d
use them in a sentence, use them; if not, don’t. Problems arise when a
person or group feels singled out by having pronouns used for other
people but not ...
61
In What does the Code of Conduct say about gender pronouns?,
3. My religion tells me that people can't change their gender. Aren't you treating me with disrespect in the name of treating others with respect?
Our users may hold any beliefs they do - be it about gender or even having strong opinions about religions themselves. But if you go out of ...
6
But conspicuously avoiding using pronouns for one group of people while using them normally for others is a way of refusing to recognize their identity, and that is discriminatory. Please don’t do that.
Is one allowed going forward with the new Code of Conduct be allowed to change their writing style to be pronoun free and stay compliant with the new Code ...
93
The FAQ says:
Many trans people have told us that they feel uncomfortable, unwelcome, or even unsafe here. That isn't what we want
They're not the only ones who are uncomfortable. Other users may feel uncomfortable too, unless they follow the FAQ's advice and change their writing style, which in itself could be uncomfortable for them:
4. I find it ...
41
If an answer is written, and uses a particular pronoun, let's say "he", and a user suggests an edit to this answer to change it to "they", and no other changes are required in the answer (i.e. it's otherwise perfect), do I accept this edit? What if I reject it instead? Assume the edit reason is "being more inclusive" and the suggester doesn't clarify that OP ...
16
status-completed
U4. If someone puts their pronouns into a question they're asking, should we leave that in or edit it out as noise?
Add a comment noting what they said and suggesting that they could add it to their profile and comment on the question/answer next time.
(Emphasis mine)
May this be a left-over from what used to be in the answer to "10. ...
129
An over-complex "solution" to something we already had a solution to.
The old engineer's rule is being broken : "Keep It Simple, Stupid."
We had a "be nice" policy applied by moderator common sense and could extend that with a single statement like :
Be nice means, if practical and reasonable, using pronouns that individuals ask you to when referring to ...
114
I find it really distressing to use pronouns in a way I think is wrong. Is there really no alternative?
You can often avoid using
pronouns altogether. It's actually pretty rare to need third-person
pronouns at all on most Stack Exchange sites. But conspicuously
avoiding using pronouns for one group of people while using them
normally for ...
11
Edit: This has already been answered here
One question that I've seen a fair bit recently is:
If a user gets this wrong, will the company publicly slander them to news organisations?
To me that's the most terrifying part of this mess.
22
status-completed
From the answer But what about...? The edge cases, question 1:
Some of our sites may have topics where gender is part of the subject of the site and may be a valid question for those experts. When answering these questions, it is important that answers are not conveying the author's opinions but reporting an objective answer to the ...
2
This sounds a lot like the Ex Post Facto Law, where what you said years ago now contradicts with the new Code of Conduct released this year. I'm sure nothing bad will come of this one situation. Like others have said, if the user has requested to be referred to as another gender/pronoun, then refer to them as such moving on. You should be in the clear.
2
I'm a big proponent of an auto-expanding pronoun tag, e.g. [they:@username] which draws from some newly added profile setting and renders he, she, they, ziy, etc based on @username's preference. This could further serve to accommodate changes to that preference over time, updating references retroactively.
Anything else seems to invite more social ...
11
The intent is wrong.
You're basically trying to say you correctly followed a process which hadn't been published yet to remove a moderator for violating a code of conduct which hadn't been published yet either.
And I haven't even started talking about how it's debatable whether or not the code was actually violated, and how the code itself has received ...
3
If you aren't sure, use "they".
I'm queer, but I'm not trans. However, as someone who presents my gender in a way that may not be clear to some, I'm fine with being called "they" as opposed to "she" when someone isn't sure.
I don't care what the new CoC does or doesn't say; I have never met a single transgender, nonbinary, or androgynous person who ...
6
ASK QUESTIONS
Asking and answering questions is what this network is all about, isn't it? So, as long as the questions we ask are appropriate, relevant and and respectful, they can't possibly damage the community, can they?
Most people come here to learn, to share knowledge, or both. So let's do just that.
What to Ask
We need to ask questions and provide ...
102
This is a community-wiki answer based on comments under Robert Harvey's Meta SO post I'm resigning as a moderator from all Stack Exchange sites. Feel free to edit additional details based on posts made by Robert Harvey relating to this question as he has indicated his case may be discussed publicly.
The original comment (as stated in this question) linked ...
8
I asked this! Though obviously not as well :)
Sure I think SO has started to change from a bunch of guys doing one cool thing well, into a rigid corporate entity focussed on control of the product and "the brand", and as a result will end up breaking what they had before. The trick on this transition is to maintain just enough of the old system that it ...
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