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Timeline for Over eager downvotes and close votes [closed]

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May 23, 2017 at 12:36 history edited CommunityBot
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Nov 21, 2013 at 16:53 review Reopen votes
Nov 21, 2013 at 19:39
Nov 21, 2013 at 10:23 comment added Martin Smith @KenWhite - It veers into shopping list territory at the end but "Is there a plugin-less way of retrieving query string values via jQuery (or without)?" is essentially just asking "How can I retrieve query string values via jQuery or plain javascript?". The top voted answers all show code and don't use any third party plugins. In general simple questions of the form "How do I do X in language Y" are rarely improved long term by adding "I tried Z" IMO. Whilst in the short term it might establish the askers credentials as a non help vampire in the long term it just adds noise.
S Nov 21, 2013 at 8:13 history closed slugster
user206222
Hugo Dozois
Himanshu
Martijn Pieters 		Opinion-based
S Nov 21, 2013 at 8:13 comment added Martijn Pieters possible duplicate of Could we please be a bit nicer to new users?
Nov 21, 2013 at 6:27 answer added Uooo timeline score: 5
Nov 21, 2013 at 4:59 comment added Brian Campbell @KenWhite Yes, we're talking about the same question. I see nothing wrong with asking "how do I do obvious thing X with library Y". Sometimes that can be hard to figure out based on the docs (or library Y doesn't implement obvious thing X for some reason), so asking that question is perfectly reasonable. Now, I have some issues with the top answer there (as many of the comments point out, a snippet of mediocre regex parsing is not really the best answer), but that's really because there isn't actually a good answer, since as far as I can tell, neither the DOM nor jQuery provide such a method.
Nov 21, 2013 at 4:47 comment added Brian Campbell @probablyPekka That would definitely help. Once a question is closed, I always wonder if I should bother improving it, since it may never get reopened (unless I spend a lot of time and argument advocating for it here or on chat, which I usually don't feel motivated to do). And if it's a case where the question was closed while I was writing an answer, I have to save my answer away somewhere, wait for it to be reopened, notice that it was (since there's no notification for that, as far as I know), and then go back and post my answer now that it's reopened.
Nov 21, 2013 at 4:23 comment added Pekka @Brian to me, it's evidence that the reopen process needs to be improved. A question like that becomes value when somebody who cares (like you) becomes an "advocate" for it. Perhaps reopening should be made easier when that happens
Nov 21, 2013 at 2:53 comment added Aaron Bertrand Staff Some people aren't going to like the rules, and aren't going to be willing to improve their question to get it re-opened. Big deal. The site can't possibly please everyone, and if you don't enforce some quality bar, it becomes just like all the other crap out there, and the experts answering the questions will leave.
Nov 21, 2013 at 2:52 comment added Ken White @Brian: Are we discussing the same question this one? If that's an example of the kind of question you're defending, I have to vehemently oppose your point of view. "Is there a plug-in less way of doing this? If not, can you recommend one?" is definitely not the kind of questions I'd like to see on SO. If that became the norm here, this site would become nothing but noise like many other sites, just like ExpertsExchange did.
Nov 21, 2013 at 2:47 comment added Brian Campbell @KenWhite That's exactly the attitude that I'm taking issue with. The question is not great, but it was able to be answered to the satisfaction of the person asking it and thousands of people who discovered it via Google later. That's one of the questions that makes StackOverflow really valuable. If this is bad per the "guidelines now", then SO truly has lost its way. It was supposed to be a place that would replace the likes of ExpertsExchange or forums or mailing lists where the right answer is 3 pages in.
Nov 21, 2013 at 2:35 comment added Ken White @Martin: I just looked at the question you posted as a lack of effort question with lots of votes. It's a question that now would be closed as off-topic (a request for a library link) that's only survived this long because it was made CW long ago (and is probably still around only because it's CW). It's a miserable example, despite the number of votes it's received. If that's your great example, you've picked the wrong one. I'd vote to close that instantly according to the guidelines now (although I'd leave a comment and wouldn't downvote). If you're going to pick an example, pick a real one.
Nov 21, 2013 at 2:16 comment added Brian Campbell @probablyPekka So, if that's the case, then that's more evidence that we should be less hasty to close questions. Take a look at that SQL date range query question. Should that be removed from the Google index? No, it's actually a reasonable question, stated plenty clearly, perfectly searchable, with a good answer, and some links to more information in the comments. A closed question does no one any good, and from my experience, closed questions are a lot more likely to stay closed than be reopened (especially in cases like this; closed by a moderator).
Nov 21, 2013 at 2:00 comment added Pekka @Brian but that doesn't make sense. A closed question, even if it has a good answer, will eventually become stale, because no new answers can be added. The kind of question we're talking about here needs to be either fixed and reopened, or removed (from the site or from the index). Otherwise, it'll be nothing but a zombie
Nov 21, 2013 at 1:57 comment added Brian Campbell @probablyPekka Wait a second; you want to remove useful questions, that help people out, from the Google index? Part of what we're discussing here are questions that didn't "show minimal effort", and yet were able to be answered anyhow, so they are closed despite having useful answers. I agree that very low quality questions and answers like the one in the example "How to save the world" example should be removed or deranked in Google's index, but the SQL date range question above, if it were removed, would considerably hurt the internet.
Nov 21, 2013 at 1:53 comment added Martin Smith @probablyPekka - I like that suggestion.
Nov 21, 2013 at 1:52 comment added Pekka @BrianCampbell that's an argument for removing those questions from the Google index, though, rather than leaving them open. After all, this is an issue that relates to all closed questions, not just those that may have been overzealously closed. Related suggestion here: How to save the world... One question title at a time
Nov 21, 2013 at 1:48 review Close votes
Nov 21, 2013 at 8:13
Nov 21, 2013 at 1:45 comment added Brian Campbell @probablyPekka I don't think so. That's another problem that people complain about (especially when an opinion based question gets posted to HN), but if you're Googling for an answer, you're usually looking for something more specific, not just an open-ended discussion. The SQL example above is a good example; someone asked a question that was clear and unambiguous, someone answered, and then later it was closed because the person asking didn't flail around helplessly enough to qualify as having "demonstrated a minimal understanding".
Nov 21, 2013 at 1:44 comment added Ken White @sashkello: Yeah, that's something of a problem. Many people downvote unnecessarily (particularly when it comes to off-topic questions - I've seen many well-asked questions that just happened to be posted to the wrong site get heavily downvoted, when instead they should just be migrated instead).
Nov 21, 2013 at 1:26 answer added sashkello timeline score: 4
Nov 21, 2013 at 1:20 comment added Pekka people in that HN thread complained about Googling for something and finding the answer on a question that's closed that's very likely to be the product of a different discussion, though - the closing of popular but off-topic questions long after the fact. Which many people vocally hate, both outside and on Stack Overflow
Nov 21, 2013 at 1:19 answer added Kate Gregory timeline score: 14
Nov 21, 2013 at 1:19 comment added sashkello I think that most people treat downvoting and closing as kind of coming together. It shouldn't be the case and each of these actions should be ruled by separate logic.
Nov 21, 2013 at 1:07 comment added Ken White @Brian: Meh. You could search much better if there was more content, so you could find it with less specific text, for future readers who don't have the actual question content in front of them to pick and choose their exact search phrase to prove a point. :-) After all, "sometimes, if you're a beginner, you don't know how to phrase your search terms properly" (to paraphrase slightly).
Nov 21, 2013 at 1:06 answer added Geobits timeline score: 6
Nov 21, 2013 at 1:04 comment added Brian Campbell There's a difference between a "give me teh codez" question, like the // what do I write here example given, and a fairly simple "I want to do a query for dates in the current month" and someone can post a single SQL statement that does it. Sometimes, if you're a beginner, you don't know how to ask properly.
Nov 21, 2013 at 1:02 comment added Brian Campbell @MartinSmith Exactly. That question is perfectly answerable, was answered successfully, and may help someone in a future Google search. And yet it was closed. This effect is off-putting to people; people in that HN thread complained about Googling for something and finding the answer on a question that's closed. It's a slap in the face, and doesn't seem to do anything useful. It's OK if a beginner comes in and asks "how do I do xyz", and someone answers them. I don't see why we should make them jump through a hoop of posting something obviously incorrect to get an answer to that question.
Nov 21, 2013 at 0:56 comment added Brian Campbell @KenWhite With that question and answer (assuming that Google picks it up now that it's been undeleted) you should be able to search for "html5 filesystem file size" and actually be able to figure out how to get the size from a file. Not everyone is good at parsing through standards, especially people for whom English is not their native language.
Nov 21, 2013 at 0:55 comment added Martin Smith @KenWhite - I have noticed the "minimal understanding" close reason being applied somewhat unnecessarily IMO. I don't see the point of blocking future answers to questions like this simply because the OP didn't post what they tried.
Nov 21, 2013 at 0:49 answer added Travis J timeline score: 3
Nov 21, 2013 at 0:48 comment added Ken White @Martin: There's no value added of having a lot of low-effort, no searchable content questions here. A decent description of the problem and some description of effort in trying to solve it provides more value IMO. The post in question was a sentence of about 10 words and a code block of three lines (one commented out). Find useful information that will be meaningful in a search here from that content.
Nov 21, 2013 at 0:45 comment added Ken White @Brian: Yeah, I didn't really wait to close vote (although I'm not one of the downvoters). I actually write lots of comments to go with close votes I cast, although I freely admit that sometimes the questions are so poor I don't waste the time. :-)
Nov 21, 2013 at 0:42 comment added Brian Campbell @KenWhite Yeah, that comment that you made is good! I appreciate that you took the time to do that. That is exactly what I'm talking about; that question absolutely should be closed, but people shouldn't just be left mystified as to why.
Nov 21, 2013 at 0:41 comment added Martin Smith @KenWhite - Showing effort doesn't really contribute to the long term value of the question though. Here's an example with 2,000 upvotes and no effort shown. As long as the meaning of the question is clear then I don't subscribe to the notion that every question must demonstrate it.
Nov 21, 2013 at 0:39 comment added Travis J In my opinion this is a side affect of the close vote queue serving up questions so quickly. Once the first close vote occurred the question was pushed to the very front of the close vote queue. What ensued was a wave of people furiously trying to work through nearly 100,000 close votes. As a result, the question was taken down. I don't think this is culture, I think it is a rough byproduct of a broken feature.
Nov 21, 2013 at 0:36 comment added Ken White @Brian: I just read this question. What constructive comment should I leave there, and how long do I wait for the poster to improve it before voting to close it ?
Nov 21, 2013 at 0:29 comment added Ken White @Brian: OK. I disagree, because the SO guidelines specifically mention that some effort should be shown (I'm sure you can find it without a link), and posting a single sentence and three lines of code (one third of which is commented out) IMO does not meet that guideline. The close reason used for that clearly displays a link that discusses how to show that effort (and with 177 upvotes and Jon Skeet as the author, I'd say it's a good link).
Nov 21, 2013 at 0:23 comment added Brian Campbell @KenWhite Sure, that question is obviously bad, and can't really be rehabilitated. I probably would have written a comment about it, explaining that they need to show what they've tried and not just ask us to implement it for them, but I don't blame anyone for just voting on that question without commenting. I'm not asking for you to leave open a "give me teh codez" question. What I'm complaining about are that people don't stop to think for two seconds before voting to close "is there a real question here". They vote first and ask questions later.
Nov 21, 2013 at 0:21 comment added Brian Campbell @KenWhite That's a very dangerous attitude for a community to adopt. There's a reason that one of Wikipedia's main guidelines is to assume good faith. I've seen plenty of bad questions where not enough research has been put in. But if you take that attitude, of assuming someone is not asking the question in good faith, you can be too hasty in your judgement. That makes people feel attacked unfairly. I'm bringing this up since I feel that the StackOverflow community is going in exactly the wrong direction; assuming lack of good faith.
Nov 21, 2013 at 0:19 comment added Ken White @Brian: I voted to close (without comment) a question a while ago (can't find a link) that said "I need a Calendar class. Heres what I have so far: class Calendar { // What do I write here??? };. How is that beneficial to leave open? Do you really expect the poster to improve it if I comment? Trying to be supportive is great, and I'm all for it, but SO is not a "hold my hand and teach me" site. This site "drowning in crap" is exactly what happens when most of these types of questions are left open.
Nov 21, 2013 at 0:16 comment added Pekka Also I agree @Brian that a question that has been downvoted and closed mostly has no realistic chance of being rehabilitated. That is an aspect of the system that is really demotivating for new users. Not sure whether the reopen queue has changed that in any serious way but from my experience it still is true more often than not. Also a preexisting -1 on a question makes me psychologically more ready to pull the trigger myself, and I'm sure I'm not the only one
Nov 21, 2013 at 0:16 answer added slugster timeline score: 7
Nov 21, 2013 at 0:15 comment added Pekka I have to agree with Ken in that this bears all the marks of a really bad question, even if it wasn't. Still - I do post "Google it" comments frequently (and downvote), but only after I've checked that a perfect answer is indeed in the top 5 results. Posting "Google it" without having verified the answer is actually Google-able sucks.
Nov 21, 2013 at 0:13 comment added Brian Campbell I worry that this place may be "drowning in crap" not due to too many clueless questions, but due to people simply being scared off rather than improving their questioning. I pretty much always try to give an explanation when downvoting or voting to close a question (unless it's a migration or duplicate), as that tells someone what they need to do to get me to change my vote, and how to do better in the future. All of these people giving useless "google it" or links to irrelevant information, or just downvoting without comment, are really hurting the site more than helping it.
Nov 21, 2013 at 0:11 comment added Ken White @BrianCampbell: Of course not, and that's not what I said. "A minimal effort" is a far cry from "write down every piece of research". They should state some effort, not just say "How do I...?" and post a block of code that clearly doesn't work (three lines with one commented out and '???`). The question was the equivalent of a homework question (minus the details of the assignment given), and that isn't the type of question we want to encourage at SO, IMO. And I don't assume they've Googled the question, because I've seen more than my share of questions that clearly show they didn't.
Nov 21, 2013 at 0:09 comment added Brian Campbell @probablyPekka Is a clueless "how to xyz" question really all that bad? Just answer it and move on, or ignore it and move on. If someone finds it worth answering, they will, otherwise it will fade away in obscurity. If it's already been answered, vote to close as a duplicate (I have no problem with that, though I do see that being done somewhat too often as well, when the new question isn't really a duplicate of the old one). In this case, the questioner did post what he had tried, and no one even gave him a chance to improve the question.
Nov 21, 2013 at 0:08 comment added Pekka But even then the OP can provide some detail that demonstrates that he's put thought in the issue. That's simply a necessity on SO these days.
Nov 21, 2013 at 0:03 comment added Brian Campbell @KenWhite Do people asking questions really need to write down every piece of research they've done before asking a question? I generally consider it obvious that I've tried Googling the question before asking. Now, commenting "have you tried Google" makes sense if you have tried Google and found the answer in the top couple of results; but that's not the case here, it's actually a little more involved to figure out the answer. I would prefer to encourage brevity than someone listing every possible obvious step, like Googling, that they've already done.
Nov 21, 2013 at 0:02 comment added Pekka ... but the solution must be something different from just "going easy" because that would mean the place drowning in crap. (More than it already does.)
Nov 21, 2013 at 0:00 comment added Pekka The thing is it's so difficult to tell the wheat from the chaff and there's 7,000 new questions daily, most of them chaff. The example looks awfully like a clueless "how to xyz" question. That's very unfortunate for the OP who likely isn't a native English speaker... it's not fair, but the onus here really is on the asker to be more verbose (at least a "I tried this and it did not work", instead of just a code block). I realize this sucks for many new users, I see incidents on a daily basis where I think "boy, this user isn't going to like SO, that's a shame"....
Nov 21, 2013 at 0:00 comment added Ken White I agree that the question might not be so bad as to deserve that many downvotes (I just voted to undelete), but the poster indeed showed no research effort (other than posting a commented out line of code with '???'. It would have helped the poster to have mentioned trying to research it ("I've done searches at Google and here at SO, and read the documentation at ..., and can't find any information." at least would have demonstrated a minimal effort).
Nov 20, 2013 at 23:51 history asked Brian Campbell CC BY-SA 3.0
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