Timeline for Are there any objections to using singular they for everyone?
Current License: CC BY-SA 4.0
73 events
| when toggle format | what | by | license | comment | |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| Nov 11, 2019 at 0:02 | comment | added | Ron Maupin | My objection to using "they" as a singular pronoun is that it is ambiguous and confusing. I once ended up in handcuffs for something about which I knew nothing because of a complaint using "they" as a singular, and the police thought it meant multiple people. There were only the [alleged] perpetrator (who I had never seen until then) and me in the store, so the police handcuffed us both, calling me a liar when I professed my ignorance of any wrongdoing. Ambiguity in communication can have serious consequences, and singular "they" is even banned where I work. | |
| Nov 10, 2019 at 22:54 | answer | added | planetmaker | timeline score: 1 | |
| Nov 10, 2019 at 13:42 | answer | added | I am not the way you speak | timeline score: 0 | |
| Nov 10, 2019 at 13:34 | comment | added | I am not the way you speak | @S.D. In my country all dialect speaker (that's about everyone) are forced to switch to the standard language in school, at word, and elsewhere. We do this naturally and without much thought. Why does such a switch mean that you loose your identity when everyone in my country can keep their identity when switching sociolects? | |
| Nov 10, 2019 at 13:32 | comment | added | I am not the way you speak | @S.D. "There are several variations of English. US English or UK English are not the only two. Forcing me to adopt those just in order to use this site is unacceptable to me." –– You mean that as a native speaker of English you decline to be forced to use a variety of English other than your own while all non-native speakers on this site are expected to use a foreign language? That seems excessively inflexible to me. Why cannot you use US English on this site when we French, Russians, and Chinese are willing to do so? | |
| Oct 19, 2019 at 23:02 | answer | added | The Anathema | timeline score: 5 | |
| Oct 6, 2019 at 21:12 | comment | added | trepidacious | @zaen I did type it the wrong way round the first time actually and then edited it 5 seconds later when I noticed, so that's maybe the cause of the confusion! I've checked and you're right, objecting to someone else requesting that we all use just "pronoun" is not the same as requesting that we all use "preferred pronoun". I still think that the adjective is redundant; there's no need to specify, it's just a pronoun. Unless the intent is to indicate that there is more to consider than a person's preference, which I think might be the cause of the discomfort with the phrase, if I'm following? | |
| Oct 6, 2019 at 12:30 | comment | added | Luuklag | @fencepost I saw a FR for that sonewhere | |
| Oct 6, 2019 at 8:01 | comment | added | fencepost | I wonder when someone will get around to adding a "Pronoun(s)" field to all of the profiles. Seems like the precise fields vary between sites, but if moderators are to be responsible for using specific pronouns then it seems reasonable to have a standard location they can get those. | |
| Oct 5, 2019 at 20:22 | comment | added | zaen |
@trepidacious You're asking KateGregory to use "preferred pronoun" instead of "pronoun" that statement is completely incorrect (even though I'm sure you meant the opposite of that, which is also incorrect), and I guarantee you can't find anywhere in my previous comments where I've said or even implied that.
|
|
| Oct 5, 2019 at 8:57 | comment | added | trepidacious | @zaen It kind of seems like you are asking others to change they way they use language? You're asking KateGregory to use "preferred pronoun" instead of "pronoun" and KateGregory is asking you to use "pronoun" instead of "preferred pronoun". I'd say that in the sentence "Please use the pronoun 'she'" "preferred" would be redundant. We could call it the "recommended requested preferred primary chosen pronoun" if you want, but I think I'd get tired of typing that. | |
| Oct 4, 2019 at 19:27 | history | edited | GlorfindelMod |
edited tags
|
|
| Oct 4, 2019 at 17:47 | comment | added | zaen | @KateGregory I'm not the one asking others to change the way they use language to fit my worldview. | |
| Oct 4, 2019 at 17:27 | answer | added | ChrisW | timeline score: 7 | |
| Oct 4, 2019 at 17:15 | comment | added | Kate Gregory | @zaen so now starting a sentence with "please" and explaining why is "insisting"? And it's newspeak language manipulation? But you saying "preferred" all the time is not? It's like referring to birth parents as "real parents", meaning the adoptive parents aren't the real parents. When you insist it's just a preference, you strongly imply that there are real and correct pronouns that are different from this malleable and ignorable preference. So now who's manipulating by choosing adjectives? | |
| Oct 4, 2019 at 17:06 | history | edited | Mari-Lou A Слава Україні |
improved tags
|
|
| Oct 4, 2019 at 17:05 | comment | added | zaen | @KateGregory you're misrepresenting what I said, I'll assume unintentionally. I wasn't saying that I get to choose what to call you, I was saying that insisting people say "pronouns" instead of "preferred pronouns" to legitimize an opinion with which many people disagree is exactly the type of newspeak language manipulation that is causing this problem. | |
| Oct 4, 2019 at 14:50 | answer | added | Michael | timeline score: 6 | |
| Oct 4, 2019 at 12:42 | comment | added | Kate Gregory | You've got that right, though I wouldn't use the phrase "political agenda". Insisting that you get to choose what to call me is, in my opinion, rude and against the CoC, whether that's a name, a pronoun, or the people who tell me I am an American because Canada is part of North America. This is the heart of the CoC indeed. I'm disappointed you think you get to choose who people are and what they are called, but pleased you understand the issue here. | |
| Oct 4, 2019 at 12:33 | comment | added | zaen | @KateGregory whether or not the pronouns someone adopts are "correct" is a matter of political opinion, and attempting to force people to speak in a way that fits a certain political agenda is exactly what the whole disagreement about the CoC is about. | |
| Oct 4, 2019 at 10:21 | answer | added | SztupY | timeline score: 13 | |
| Oct 4, 2019 at 7:10 | vote | accept | Luuklag | ||
| Oct 4, 2019 at 5:17 | comment | added | PM 2Ring | Sorry @tblue, you are entitled to your beliefs about gender identity, but you don't get to impose them on others. If someone wants a gender-neutral designation that's their choice to make. | |
| Oct 4, 2019 at 5:14 | comment | added | philipxy | @tblue But it turns out that it is you who is the one is the unreality, where you think that a person's sex needs to be referenced in referring to them, rather than that being a convention. | |
| Oct 3, 2019 at 22:25 | answer | added | Victor Stafusa | timeline score: 63 | |
| Oct 3, 2019 at 20:58 | comment | added | Wildcard | @Blue, I would love it if you wrote an answer to this post. I think you are stating the objections that I have better than I am, for the most part. | |
| Oct 3, 2019 at 19:49 | comment | added | ahiijny | Somewhat related: english.stackexchange.com/questions/48/…, english.stackexchange.com/questions/19074/…, english.stackexchange.com/questions/192/…, english.stackexchange.com/questions/216617/… | |
| Oct 3, 2019 at 18:49 | comment | added | Luuklag | @tblue there are people in this world who identify male nor female, I dont see why making them chose between the two would be beneficial to them. | |
| Oct 3, 2019 at 18:01 | comment | added | GhostCat | Non native English speaker here: do you mind editing the question to add a few examples of "undesired" sentences, and how to exactly reword them? | |
| Oct 3, 2019 at 17:55 | history | edited | Luuklag | CC BY-SA 4.0 |
added 147 characters in body
|
| Oct 3, 2019 at 15:25 | answer | added | Marco13 | timeline score: 14 | |
| Oct 3, 2019 at 15:03 | comment | added | Luuklag | @KateGregory, thank you for your feedback. | |
| Oct 3, 2019 at 15:02 | history | edited | Luuklag | CC BY-SA 4.0 |
deleted 2 characters in body
|
| Oct 3, 2019 at 14:24 | answer | added | anonymous | timeline score: 15 | |
| Oct 3, 2019 at 13:58 | comment | added | Ramhound | I would argue that if "he" and "she" will not be allowed then, contributions that contain those words, should not allowed to be submitted. While I attempt to keep things to "they" and "them" or more respectfully "the author" and/or "you", because I don't know the gender of anyone on any SE community, I don't agree a user should be punished for saying "he" to somebody who does not identify as a "he" and I say this as somebody with a entirely different viewpoint on the subject than I am expressing in this comment. | |
| Oct 3, 2019 at 13:06 | comment | added | Kate Gregory | please don't use the phrase "preferred pronouns." Just say "pronouns". This isn't a preference. Is my "preferred name" Kate? Nope, it's my name. If you call me Kathy you're misnaming me, not just ignoring my preference. If you need to distinguish between someone's pronouns and the wrong pronouns, you could use adjectives like "correct" or "actual". | |
| Oct 3, 2019 at 12:57 | answer | added | Jay | timeline score: -8 | |
| Oct 3, 2019 at 10:47 | answer | added | Journeyman Geek | timeline score: 23 | |
| Oct 3, 2019 at 10:19 | answer | added | Mari-Lou A Слава Україні | timeline score: 31 | |
| Oct 3, 2019 at 10:18 | answer | added | J.R. means 'Just Reinstate' | timeline score: 16 | |
| Oct 3, 2019 at 9:58 | answer | added | Shadow Wizard | timeline score: -5 | |
| Oct 3, 2019 at 9:47 | answer | added | AlexP | timeline score: 38 | |
| Oct 3, 2019 at 9:44 | answer | added | Mark Amery | timeline score: 138 | |
| Oct 3, 2019 at 9:37 | answer | added | kevin | timeline score: 188 | |
| Oct 3, 2019 at 9:11 | comment | added | aloisdg | A lot of user in the review queue can barely talk in english. Please be inclusive and allow them this kind of cultural mistake. I dont care about all of this if I can understand their problem. You want to enfore something? I will trade any cultural identity problem for a better and more strict [MCVE] policy. | |
| Oct 3, 2019 at 9:00 | answer | added | user351483 | timeline score: 5 | |
| Oct 3, 2019 at 8:40 | review | Close votes | |||
| Oct 3, 2019 at 9:25 | |||||
| Oct 3, 2019 at 8:27 | answer | added | Stephie | timeline score: 60 | |
| Oct 3, 2019 at 8:27 | comment | added | Luuklag | @Raedwald from anyone willing to share them. I think Glorfindel wrote a good answer on the practicality of such a rule, and Blue made a point that they feel it violates their identity and roots. Perhaps there are objections to being called "they" by others, I don't know. To me at first glance it seemed like a middle ground we can meet on for the majority of users. I know we can't do right by 100% of them, but a solid 95% would be the goal, where the 5% shouldn't be the under represented groups by default. | |
| Oct 3, 2019 at 8:26 | comment | added | user437611 | @Raedwald "If SE wanted to debate the matter here, they would have done so." Not so sure that about. They might just be watching their steps carefully at this point, and silently so. | |
| Oct 3, 2019 at 8:24 | comment | added | Raedwald | @Blue If SE wanted to debate the matter here, they would have done so. For good or ill, the matter is not up for debate. | |
| Oct 3, 2019 at 8:21 | comment | added | Raedwald | Objections from whom? If there exists even one person who objects, you have your answer. I am sure you can imagine such a person exists. So what is the point of the question? To poll for everyone who objects? | |
| Oct 3, 2019 at 8:19 | comment | added | user437611 | @Raedwald Well, one counter-argument is that it might be too late by then. There's still a chance that they'll modify their envisioned CoC after seeing the responses here. | |
| Oct 3, 2019 at 8:19 | comment | added | Luuklag | @Raedwald I had no intention what so ever to fuel the fire. I was curious if we could reach some middleground as a community. Since if we could they could still adapt the CoC, since it is not published. | |
| Oct 3, 2019 at 8:17 | comment | added | Raedwald | Rather than add fuel to the dumpster fire based on speculation, why not wait until the new Code of Conduct is published, and then discuss what it actually says and requires? | |
| Oct 3, 2019 at 8:17 | comment | added | Luuklag | @MEEwasthemissingbracket I am aware, hence I didn't suggest it as an option, I edited my previous comment to clarify. | |
| Oct 3, 2019 at 8:16 | comment | added | User that hates AI | @Luuklag theoretically it is possible for moderators to edit all comments, but most of them already have a lot of work to do, so it would be extremely unrealistic, that they would also edit any comment they see using wrong pronouns. | |
| Oct 3, 2019 at 8:13 | comment | added | Luuklag | @ThierryLathuille I wouldn't mind indeed. If your comments are really helpfull they should either be an answer or an edit to the question. That is the entire spirit if comments, their not intended to last anyways. So as long as their is no way for the community to edit comments deletion is a valid option IMO. | |
| Oct 3, 2019 at 8:11 | comment | added | user437611 | @Luuklag There's a vast difference between misgendering people and refusing to use non-binary pronouns or singular they as there are better alternatives. This is the exact source of confusion that led to Monica being unjustly fired. This debate/argument has been done and dusted several times in the past couple of days and I'm tired of it now. | |
| Oct 3, 2019 at 8:11 | history | edited | Rand al'Thor | CC BY-SA 4.0 |
I think that was a typo?
|
| Oct 3, 2019 at 8:09 | comment | added | Luuklag | @Blue and misgendering people violates their identity. | |
| Oct 3, 2019 at 8:09 | comment | added | user437611 | @ThierryLathuille "I really don't feel welcome to participate in the world that your vision and rules try to build."... not to mention, that brings in mental images of all kinds of dystopian societies. ;) | |
| S Oct 3, 2019 at 7:59 | history | edited | GlorfindelMod | CC BY-SA 4.0 |
minor grammar fix
|
| S Oct 3, 2019 at 7:59 | history | suggested | Suraj Rao | CC BY-SA 4.0 |
minor grammar fix
|
| Oct 3, 2019 at 7:58 | answer | added | GlorfindelMod | timeline score: 83 | |
| Oct 3, 2019 at 7:57 | review | Suggested edits | |||
| S Oct 3, 2019 at 7:59 | |||||
| Oct 3, 2019 at 7:54 | comment | added | Thierry Lathuille | @Luuklag So you would happily see my technically sound comments deleted and me being punished because I would have used 'he' or 'she' in them? And, of course, in the name of openness, tolerance and inclusivity? Sorry, but I came here to help people, whoever they are, with their technical problems, and I really don't feel welcome to participate in the world that your vision and rules try to build. | |
| Oct 3, 2019 at 7:38 | comment | added | user437611 | You're missing the point. There are several variations of English. US English or UK English are not the only two. Forcing me to adopt those just in order to use this site is unacceptable to me. In that case, the site has to do without me, as such a policy is basically asking me to violate my own identity and roots. I will simply not come to terms with such a policy, at any cost. | |
| Oct 3, 2019 at 7:37 | comment | added | Luuklag | @Blue the language on this site is English, so you should use that language. If you want to be a part of the network, you should adapt to fit in. Simply stating that it is awkward is not a real objection, but something you should come to terms with. | |
| Oct 3, 2019 at 7:35 | comment | added | user437611 | [cont.] What's absolutely crucial to note here is that a vast majority of the population on this site are non-native English speakers. In my part of the world, singular 'they' is considered to be absolutely awkward and foreign. In fact, I had never even heard of that usage before joining Stack Exchange. | |
| Oct 3, 2019 at 7:35 | comment | added | Luuklag | @Blue we all know that encouraging people isn't going to result in any change at all. Hence the only solution would be to enforce the use of singular they. For regular posts it can be done simply be editing any other pronoun, comments should simply be deleted, and moderators should uphold the highest standards to begin with, so they should be reprimanded, and perhaps even punished for using other pronouns. And if there are users that are willfully disobeying the CoC by using a different pronoun they should be dealt with just as any other CoC violation. | |
| Oct 3, 2019 at 7:31 | comment | added | user437611 | "Are there any objections to using singular they for everyone?" Largely depends on the context. Am I being forced to use singular 'they' under the threat of being suspended even though that's not a linguistic approach I'm comfortable with? Then, yes, I have objections. Or am I simply being encouraged to adopt singular 'they' because it's gender-neutral (and because we don't yet have an equivalent and popularized word in the English language, having a clear distinction between singular and plural)? Then, no, I don't have any objections as such. | |
| Oct 3, 2019 at 7:26 | history | asked | Luuklag | CC BY-SA 4.0 |