Timeline for Moderation strike: Results of negotiations
Current License: CC BY-SA 4.0
84 events
| when toggle format | what | by | license | comment | |
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| May 3 at 23:34 | history | edited | starball | CC BY-SA 4.0 |
added 20 characters in body
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| Mar 12 at 17:24 | comment | added | Andreas condemns Israel | @Charlie Not applicable. Posting genAI is not the same as hacking into a computer system. Once somebody is in, they can wreak havoc. Once somebody's posted generative AI, we just need to detect and nuke it. Obscurity decreases the detection time for generative AI, thereby letting us detect more with the same amount of resources. Obscurity is an effective tool at better managing the incoming attacks. | |
| Mar 12 at 12:14 | comment | added | Journeyman Geek | @NaveenKarnam IME a lot of it isn't and more importantly a lot of folks who post that do so cynically without checking its correctness. IF someone wants a chatGPT answer - they can ask chatgpt. | |
| Mar 12 at 11:55 | comment | added | starball | @NaveenKarnam stackoverflow.com/help/ai-policy (several reasons listed), meta.stackoverflow.com/q/421831/11107541 (see "influx") | |
| Mar 12 at 11:09 | comment | added | Naveen Karnam | While it is difficult identifying and flagging valid content - whether it is AI generated or not, my question is "What is the problem if the AI generated content is accurate?" For all we know ChatGPT is trained on SE data. So, the new AI policy needs to take this usefulness of GenAI into account without overlooking human expertise / validation, I feel. Irresponsible posts are toxic. There is no going away from that baseline. | |
| Feb 21 at 13:33 | history | edited | Laurel | CC BY-SA 4.0 |
There are more strong and weak heuristics, but it's too much of a hassle to update
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| Nov 30, 2023 at 23:56 | comment | added | Charlie | On the point about keeping the security a secret, I would just like to remind that "obscurity is not security." | |
| Sep 2, 2023 at 1:00 | history | edited | CommunityBot |
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| Aug 31, 2023 at 11:52 | history | edited | Laurel | CC BY-SA 4.0 |
edited body
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| Aug 16, 2023 at 2:19 | review | Suggested edits | |||
| Aug 16, 2023 at 3:40 | |||||
| Aug 11, 2023 at 13:19 | comment | added | David | I must say I am pleasantly surprised. Frankly had lost hope in SE. Well Done SE and Mods. This looks very promising. | |
| Aug 9, 2023 at 17:32 | history | edited | Laurel | CC BY-SA 4.0 |
Make it clearer with formatting
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| Aug 7, 2023 at 15:58 | history | edited | V2BlastStaffMod | CC BY-SA 4.0 |
fixed spelling
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| Aug 7, 2023 at 14:04 | comment | added | Journeyman Geek Mod | Aside from the internal conversations that really need to happen - I think there's quite a few issues that need to be brought up at the next opportunity. Unfortunately, I feel like there's already a lot of damage done (by both past leadership and present), and its work that hopefully can be done over the long run. | |
| Aug 7, 2023 at 13:45 | comment | added | AMtwo | The notes above mention discussion around toxic communications from Moderators towards the company. Was there any discussion about toxic communication by the company, as that has also been a notable issue hurting the lines of communication. | |
| Aug 7, 2023 at 9:39 | comment | added | NoDataDumpNoContribution | It's really nice that the company came around to all of this. If only they would have done that earlier (like at the end of May). It's also very impressive to see the amount of unpaid work that the striking moderators have put into this. I probably wouldn't have had the will and time for that. I really hope the chosen and still to be determined future heuristics work out, i.e. in allowing to suspend AI using users while not suspending not AI using users or users who only built upon AI but checked and reworked their content. The future will tell. | |
| Aug 6, 2023 at 6:52 | comment | added | Philippe StaffMod | @ColleenV, I have posted an answer, as you suggested, below. I hope that's sufficient to satisfy the request here. | |
| Aug 6, 2023 at 6:51 | vote | accept | Mithical | ||
| Aug 6, 2023 at 6:51 | answer | added | PhilippeStaffMod | timeline score: 314 | |
| Aug 5, 2023 at 21:47 | comment | added | Makyen | @Mazura The data dumps are back. You can verify that here. | |
| Aug 5, 2023 at 20:28 | comment | added | Mazura | So, the data dumps are back, or they said they'd put them back? | |
| Aug 5, 2023 at 16:05 | comment | added | Joshua | "Stack Exchange, Inc. staff cannot mandate moderation actions be taken without a public policy supporting those actions" I feel like I won. | |
| Aug 5, 2023 at 14:08 | answer | added | kevinskio | timeline score: 9 | |
| Aug 5, 2023 at 6:22 | comment | added | Makyen | @Joako Everything I said in that reply is still accurate. The open letter website was updated as a result of two votes on Discord. One of those votes was of the moderators who have happened to be there and the other was open to all users in the strike channels. The results of both votes were overwhelmingly in favor of ending the strike. Thus, the open letter was updated. That does not, however, change that it's each individual's choice as to be on strike, or not. | |
| Aug 5, 2023 at 5:36 | comment | added | Joako | @Makyen about you answer to TimothyG. question: "Does this effectively mean the strike has ended?".... Could you check this please? | |
| Aug 4, 2023 at 7:11 | comment | added | Stephen G Tuggy |
@Philippe : With all due respect, your comment (@Levente, for the avoidance of doubt, ...) sounds like something that was very carefully written to sound like it's binding, without actually being binding. Perhaps this is as much as you can say right now. I can understand that. And I in no way wish to disregard the value of your participation in these negotiations, or your efforts on behalf of the community and for the good of the Stack Exchange network as a whole. As far as I can tell, these have been substantial. I await the explicit, highly-visible official statement. Thanks
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| Aug 3, 2023 at 22:53 | answer | added | Ryan M | timeline score: 43 | |
| Aug 3, 2023 at 18:13 | comment | added | Someone | @RandomPerson I feel I didn't word that properly, parhaps mis-aligned was not the correct word. However, the numbers were significantly smaller than the actual headings. Also, due to the (already) narrow content area, it pushed some headers on to three lines and as paragraphs were pushed to the right they ended appearing rather "squished". | |
| Aug 3, 2023 at 18:02 | comment | added | Random Person | @Lewis Maybe reading in mobile might have been harder, but I feel bullets make it easier for a person to read the important parts quickly (example: stackoverflow.com/legal/terms-of-service). The reason for using different types of headers in this post is to differentiate the headings, sub-headings and sub-sub-headings, but I'm sorry to say, I find this post too hard as it needs bullets but they're circumventing it with headers. Mithical, please try to improve the readability of this post. P.S. Lewis, the bullets were not misaligned. | |
| Aug 3, 2023 at 17:58 | history | rollback | Mithical |
Rollback to Revision 6
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| Aug 3, 2023 at 17:57 | comment | added | Someone | Two points: First, the recent (minutes ago) edit to the post to add numbered bullets, in my opinion, make it harder to read (squished and mis-aligned). Secondly, considering the very sensitive nature of this post, is it worth locking it? I'd imagine even small edits could end up accidently changing important phrasings or meanings. | |
| Aug 3, 2023 at 17:53 | history | edited | Random Person | CC BY-SA 4.0 |
I'm sorry. I had to do this. It's too difficult to read so many paras.
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| Aug 3, 2023 at 17:01 | answer | added | Resistance Is Futile | timeline score: 35 | |
| Aug 3, 2023 at 16:32 | answer | added | Random Person | timeline score: -16 | |
| Aug 3, 2023 at 14:11 | comment | added | Philippe StaffMod | @ColleeenV thank you for the suggestion, I'll do so. | |
| Aug 3, 2023 at 12:38 | comment | added | ColleenV | @Philippe An accepted answer written by a staff member acknowledging that the company fully supports this record of the results of the negotiations would be a good idea for the historical record. All of these comments and answers are difficult for non-native English speakers to wade through, and I think an explicit highly-visible official statement would reassure some of the community. | |
| Aug 3, 2023 at 11:09 | answer | added | ouflak | timeline score: 40 | |
| Aug 3, 2023 at 10:30 | answer | added | starball | timeline score: 11 | |
| Aug 3, 2023 at 9:56 | answer | added | Mad Scientist | timeline score: 86 | |
| Aug 3, 2023 at 9:26 | answer | added | Chindraba | timeline score: 12 | |
| Aug 3, 2023 at 8:41 | answer | added | ꓢPArcheon | timeline score: 22 | |
| Aug 3, 2023 at 8:10 | answer | added | Standard_101 | timeline score: 11 | |
| Aug 3, 2023 at 7:10 | answer | added | CodeCaster | timeline score: 72 | |
| Aug 3, 2023 at 4:48 | comment | added | Philippe StaffMod | @Levente, for the avoidance of doubt, I am satisfied that this is a true and complete report on the outcome of the negotiations, and I believe that both SE and myself are as bound by this statement and my agreement as if I had posted it myself. I will endeavor to live up to the letter and the spirit of the agreement, and I believe that will be the case for the company as a whole. | |
| Aug 3, 2023 at 2:13 | answer | added | Random Person | timeline score: 9 | |
| Aug 3, 2023 at 1:48 | answer | added | Levente | timeline score: 21 | |
| Aug 3, 2023 at 0:21 | comment | added | Levente | I have seen this being mentioned in the post, but I feel it's worth reiterating not to publish the established heuristics regarding AI involvement, as that could facilitate evading detection. | |
| Aug 3, 2023 at 0:17 | answer | added | Franck Dernoncourt | timeline score: 1 | |
| Aug 2, 2023 at 23:37 | history | edited | PhilippeStaffMod |
edited tags
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| Aug 2, 2023 at 23:18 | answer | added | Bryan Krause | timeline score: 71 | |
| Aug 2, 2023 at 22:55 | comment | added | Chindraba | @gnat-onstrike- At least the chimes hadn't reached a full count of twelve on your Doomsday Clock. "Just in time, with not a second to spare," it seems. The big problem now is that we're having to deal with Eternal November of genAI. | |
| Aug 2, 2023 at 22:03 | comment | added | gnat | this came out right at the moment when I started to wonder if company maybe wants to learn how it would be to handle impact of Eternal September without volunteer moderation (not that I complain) | |
| Aug 2, 2023 at 21:35 | history | edited | iBug says Reinstate Monica | CC BY-SA 4.0 |
Fix more spelling, 🍊
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| Aug 2, 2023 at 21:15 | history | edited | V2BlastStaffMod | CC BY-SA 4.0 |
fixed spelling
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| Aug 2, 2023 at 21:09 | comment | added | anx | @Mithical & Makyen Excellent. Now you cannot just edit that in-line because it would refer to the reviewed, original version prior to that edit ;) - I do not have a better proposal, so thank you for the clarifying comments, which also do the trick. | |
| Aug 2, 2023 at 21:05 | comment | added | Makyen | @anx My goal in posting my initial comment was to quickly and publicly indicate that I support what's stated here. It seemed the most effective method of doing that in a verified manner that remains clear and clearly verified as coming from me. I'm happy to do that some other way, if it's seen as better than as a comment. I did actively participate in the preparation of this post prior to it being posted here. I guess I could have posted an answer, but that, at the time, felt superfluous given that I'd just been participating in the preparation of this post. | |
| Aug 2, 2023 at 21:04 | history | edited | iBug says Reinstate Monica | CC BY-SA 4.0 |
<br> isn't good for readability, 🍎
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| Aug 2, 2023 at 21:00 | comment | added | Makyen | @SonictheAnonymousHedgehog That seems like something that should be discussed on Discord. | |
| Aug 2, 2023 at 20:58 | answer | added | mousetail 'he-him' | timeline score: 227 | |
| Aug 2, 2023 at 20:50 | comment | added | Mithical | This post was reviewed by at least two representatives from each side of the table before being posted, @anx, and it was confirmed several times that everyone was on board with its contents before it was released publicly. | |
| Aug 2, 2023 at 20:47 | comment | added | anx | I am somewhat surprised by the comment by Makyen actively confirming that this is what was agreed on (and Philippe using a more careful phrase). Could you please add a half-sentence on the process of drafting / reviewing this very post, and/or insert a word to more strongly disambiguate "we"? Based on what has and what has not been agreed on in terms of working together when releasing statements to the press, this right here seems like a perfect example for showcasing on Meta what is (and what is not) working right now, about confirming with involved parties prior to publishing "statements". | |
| Aug 2, 2023 at 20:36 | answer | added | Machavity | timeline score: 138 | |
| Aug 2, 2023 at 20:34 | comment | added | Sonic the Anonymous Hedgehog | @Makyen There was, however, a recent message in Discord posted a couple days prior to this post asking that users who had signed on to the strike continue to hold on with the strike and not take any actions for fear of losing their leverage. Is this message no longer in effect as a result of this post? | |
| Aug 2, 2023 at 20:21 | comment | added | TylerH | @zcoop98 Yeah, I guess I inferred from prior language before that line that they would be shared, but it wasn't explicitly stated. | |
| Aug 2, 2023 at 20:19 | comment | added | zcoop98 | @TylerH Your second comment is addressed under the "Non-public enforcement guidelines in cases where making those public would be detrimental to moderation" heading: "However, the precise list of heuristics is available only to moderators and select users, and as further heuristics are developed and changes made, those heuristics will also be kept private to prevent users using these lists to evade detection." | |
| Aug 2, 2023 at 20:10 | answer | added | Shog9 | timeline score: 190 | |
| Aug 2, 2023 at 20:02 | comment | added | cocomac | @TylerH The indicators are in a private SOfT instance while we work on them, and are published in the moderator Team. They are not currently public on MSE, and AFAIK there's no plan to make them public at this time - stackoverflowteams.com/c/moderators and stackoverflowteams.com/c/gen-ai-heuristics | |
| Aug 2, 2023 at 20:01 | comment | added | TylerH | Question 2: What are the strong and weak indicators? You mentioned in the post above that there were ~9 (4 strong and 5 weak), and that you would be listing them, but I don't see them listed anywhere. | |
| Aug 2, 2023 at 20:01 | comment | added | TylerH | Question 1: "In the future, any comments made to the press that involve moderation must undergo the approval of at least one member of the Community Management Team, as that did not happen in this case." Does this refer to comments made by the Company or to comments made by Moderators? Please clarify. | |
| Aug 2, 2023 at 20:00 | comment | added | Bergi | "staff should not [have] contact[ed] the moderator who took that action" - was this the case even when staff determined that the moderator clearly made a wrong choice? | |
| Aug 2, 2023 at 19:56 | history | edited | TylerH | CC BY-SA 4.0 |
Adding some brief explanation/context for listed eligible member pools for the private team; added clarity about the released policy by SE last week being a prior policy at the time of publishing
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| Aug 2, 2023 at 19:47 | comment | added | Timothy G. | @Makyen I did view it (the strike) that way, and for at least me, I'd say this is enough to leave the picket line and return to work. | |
| Aug 2, 2023 at 19:46 | comment | added | Andreas condemns Israel | "This does not mean that the TL will lose its purpose (or, one of its purposes) as a place for mods to privately vent frustrations, but that people should be aware of the effect that their messages may have." You're better off just creating another room for venting, then. If not, you'll either end up the same way as today, or be annoyed to death each time you needfully vent, and an RO points fingers at you for doing so. | |
| Aug 2, 2023 at 19:44 | comment | added | HolyBlackCat | This is a huge success! For what feels like the first time in eternity, SE has budged on something significant. | |
| Aug 2, 2023 at 19:43 | comment | added | Makyen | In other words, it's a very significant step, but there's more discussion that needs to happen within those who are participating in the strike. | |
| Aug 2, 2023 at 19:43 | comment | added | Makyen | @TimothyG. The strike is not as well organized as that. It was never the intent that the representatives have the ability to bind the people striking to an agreement. Each person will need to determine on their own if this resolution and the various additional posts already made and to be made shortly by Stack Exchange are sufficient for them, individually, to return. The groups that have suspended operations will need to discuss the situation internally and decide if the situation is to a point where they feel comfortable resuming operations. | |
| Aug 2, 2023 at 19:40 | answer | added | Seggan | timeline score: 25 | |
| Aug 2, 2023 at 19:32 | comment | added | Timothy G. | Does this effectively mean the strike has ended? | |
| Aug 2, 2023 at 19:30 | comment | added | Glorfindel Mod | Thank you all (both the company's representatives and the moderators'/strikers'). I'll admit I didn't have the energy anymore to do something meaningful here for the past few months, but this is definitely helping me to come back in full force. | |
| Aug 2, 2023 at 19:28 | answer | added | Shog9 | timeline score: 372 | |
| Aug 2, 2023 at 19:25 | comment | added | Philippe StaffMod | From "across the table", I also wish to thank the three elected negotiators, who dug in deeply on the substantive issues and took things very seriously. Moderators were well-represented here, and I am pleased that we were able to reach agreement on so many fronts. | |
| Aug 2, 2023 at 19:19 | comment | added | Makyen | I'd like to take this opportunity to thank Mithical for their hard work on this. While all of the moderator representatives participated, Mithical was substantially the most active, and definitely put in the most work. Thank you. | |
| Aug 2, 2023 at 19:19 | comment | added | Makyen | I confirm this is what we've agreed on in negotiations, and I support this resolution. | |
| Aug 2, 2023 at 19:14 | history | asked | Mithical | CC BY-SA 4.0 |