Are there specific issues with unwelcoming behavior toward LGBTQ persons on Stack Exchange?

Question

Ever since the mass moderator resignations started, there have been hints that it is somehow related to how LGBTQ members of the community are or should be treated or welcomed. For example, in her resignation notice, Aza mentions (emphasis mine),

I am resigning as a moderator of Literature Stack Exchange, effective immediately.

My departure is not on good terms....

By other mods, by staff, and by the entrenched power structure of Stack Exchange, I have been made to feel unwelcome for my queerness. This particular pattern is abusive and makes an ironic mockery of kindness.

...Only the privileged party can elect to pretend, for a while, that we do not exist. And when moratoria are placed on speaking of our transness among moderators, only the cisgender among us are relieved.

A more recent post by Sklivvz alleges that the upcoming change in the CoC alluded to by many of the resigning moderators is over the use or misuse of pronouns for transgender people.

Does the Stack Exchange network have a problem with misgendering users or otherwise being unwelcoming or rude toward LGBTQ contributors? If so, what is it, and can someone share some concrete examples of what exactly happened? In all the time I have been here, I haven't seen any indication of such - even the religion-based sites have stayed welcoming, honestly explaining traditional and conservative teachings while maintaining civility and even niceness. The occasional troll notwithstanding (whose posts tend to get shredded rapidly), I don't see how we even have a "problem" at all.

Where specifically are LGBTQ members feeling persecuted or unwelcome? Is there an organized campaign or cabal devoted to misgendering users by intentionally using the wrong pronouns whose members need to be systematically identified and banned? Is the problem more of a perceived lack of awareness of LGBTQ issues that could be remedied with education rather than behavior modification?

In no way am I asking for information on why certain moderators have resigned or were fired, whether such actions were justified, whether moderators should resign, or related organizational matters. There are plenty of other questions where that may be discussed or debated.

Answer 1

I don't see how we even have a "problem" at all.

I think that is the fundamental divide that SE does not seem to understand and why their whole "welcoming" move is met by so much resistance and frustration.

On one hand, we have the technical sites. Those are there to answer User1248346's programming problem. Background is not required nor requested. Whether that user is a man or woman, in the Swiss alps or at an Indonesian beach, married or single, we will never know. Because it does not matter. In fact, sharing that information would be weird. Their compiler will always work the same. Put in the correct code, you get the correct result.

People on those sites don't really see the problem (literally, they don't see it because there is nothing to see, not because they turn a blind eye) and feel very insulted when told they are not welcoming. They are providing free services to random strangers and they are told that their biggest flaw is that they treat every one of those strangers like they would treat a white, straight male, the most privileged class on the planet. So they wonder what the hell this is all about, being told that they are bad people and need to be more welcoming than "just" treating random strangers like their equals and providing free work and education. How much more welcoming would you like your volunteers?

And then... there are the other sites on the network. Where people need to identify in turn to solve their problem. Because their problem is very dependent on all those factors. Background. Gender. Religion. Culture. And I will believe everyone that says they do not feel welcomed there. On technical sites you get an answer that is verifiably true (you compile it and it works... or not) whether you like it or not, it's helpful. On those other sites you get opinions or in the best case experiences. While my compiler and your compiler are guaranteed to do the same thing (given same versions and settings), whether my parents react the same as your parents when my long lost aunt tells them their nephew is gay... is really not an exact science and bound to be a big ball of communication problems, cultural misunderstandings and all round opportunities to get bad vibes. If someone explains how to fix my program in broken English, there are only a very few options to get that so wrong to be insulted. To explain your views on LGBT people without insulting any of the multiple sides to this is hard; even in your native language. So yes, if someone says they do not feel good about how this is handled, I'd give them the benefit of the doubt and say: on those sites? Absolutely. I have not witnessed anything specific, but I will believe you that this can happen easily, frequently, and in ways I probably would not even notice.

The fundamental problem is that SE mixes all of this into one big bowl of telling their users they are all bigots and they need to improve if they don't want to be banned.

I will support the improve part, but I will not silently agree to the bigot part. It's a little like asking "Will you stop beating your wife?". I certainly support not beating anybody, but I will not agree to "stop beating my wife" because that never happened in the first place, and mixing me in with the criminal **** who do that is not going to get any support from me and, seeing the reactions, a lot of people like me.

So yes, from my perspective, not seeing the problem at some places, does not mean they don't fester in others. But SE does a terrible job at telling them apart, losing some very valuable support they could have gathered. I don't think any of the opposed users would oppose a "stop bigots from abusing people" campaign. Almost all oppose a "Chances are you are a bigot, stop that behavior" campaign, because that is not the truth and I personally feel very offended by it.

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A practical example: as a technical user, I have spent years discussing problems with users like BlackUnicorn73 or HazMatX or User1234567. Telling me I have to respect their correct gender pronouns sounds ridiculous. I don't even know those. I don't know if they know them. Or care. If any of them had corrected me in the use of the one's I estimated, I would have complied. I don't care how exactly I address any of them. But making a rule about that, a code of conduct with consequences to follow? Seems very far fetched from that perspective.

On the other hand side, if you are on a site that is non-scientific and someone intentionally uses the wrong pronoun to constantly harass you against your expressed wish? Sure. Ban their sorry behind. I don't care and I certainly won't oppose that or support harassment.

But the difference here is the intention behind it. The vast majority does not belong to the latter group and SE completely fails to recognize that.

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So to summarize: Yes, it perfectly possible that for a large amount of users, this problem is not visible, because it does not exist as a global constant. And there is nothing wrong with that. It is also correct to say that for some users, this is a problem.

And we could all be happily working on a solution for a better site, if this divide would be recognized.

Answer 2

I recently saw an ex-moderator post an answer on MSE suggesting that trans people are, either in general or in the subset which cares about pronouns, mentally ill and should "get better" rather than participating. The post is now gone and I have no desire to single this person out or revive what appears to be a settled debate, so I won't identify them.

In case it's not obvious, this argument is both trans-phobic and ableist. It also was receiving upvotes faster than downvotes for several minutes (at which point I dropped off the site in disgust for multiple hours).

This was someone I had thought I respected. I'm not really sure what I think now. Part of me is beginning to wonder if the community and the company don't deserve each other. Part of me is trying to figure out what actually happened in the Teacher's Lounge, since the people I thought I could trust have betrayed that trust. Part of me is asking "why even bother any more?"

I still don't have any answers to those questions.

Answer 3

When I was still identifying as a woman, I already hated that people assumed I was a "he". It made me feel, as a woman, invisible. Like the idea of a woman liking what I liked was too impossible and, thus, that I could only be a man. It made me feel like, as a woman, I had no place here.

I now identify as non binary and I still hate it when people assume my gender. It feels like they are negating my very existence. It's not a good feeling at all.

I, once, had to argue with a user that I preferred to be called "they" rather than "he" or "she". It was only one user and, since some allies jumped in, I didn't have to do much talking (and I thank them for that). But it was still exhausting, it was still emotionally draining and it still made me feel terribly bad. And it was only one user. Who wasn't even being (intentionally) rude.

But they still wanted to be convinced before using my preferred pronouns. And, for me, this wasn't ok. Because, for me, it sounded like:

If you can convince me that you are really, really hurt by this behavior, I will stop. But if you only seem slightly hurt, I won't. Oh, and also, I will be the only one judging if you are hurt enough. Because your words don't really matter to me.

They probably didn't intend to make me feel like that. They certainly didn't even think that could be an issue. But they still ended up making me feel like crap.

Answer 4

It is difficult to say much without breaking moderator rules, but examples I've seen include

• "Oh no, not this again" reactions when someone brings up an issue.
• People asking "What can we do about people who constantly bring up these issues?".
• People asking about trans issues and then arguing with the responses they get from trans people or their allies.
• People effectively being told their experiences don't matter.
• The scale of the problem being considered sufficiently small that it isn't worth peoples time.
• People breaking moderator rules to further their agenda.^†
• People criticising suggestions that learning about LGBTQIA+ issues might help them better understand the feelings of those marginalised groups.^‡

These issues have been going on for years.

They are coming to a head now because trans exclusive voices are becoming more vocal, so trans people and their allies are refusing to stay quiet any longer, explaining their identities, how they are being excluded and what they want people to do in order to make them feel welcome.

The issues we are dealing with here on Stack Exchange mirror the issues seen out in the real world, trans exclusive bias and victimisation is common, even within communities you would expect to have sympathy for queer problems (Stonewall has faced criticism for being more trans inclusive and people are calling for a new trans exclusive Stonewall to be created!).

I try to be a good ally, as a (nominally) cis white male, so even though I'm only affected by these issues one step removed it disappoints me that people cannot see, or refuse to see the problems trans people are having in our community.

^{†This post is skirting this itself.}

^{‡ I come from culture which has, until recently, forced everyone into being labelled either male or female, ignoring the diverse nature of gender recognised by other cultures. These differences have always been there, but only now are people starting to recognise them, since my culture now has words for them. To put this into perspective, at least one in fifty people are known to have one or more of the many intersex characteristics, that is a minority, but a significant one. These characteristics have been a part of the human genome for as long as we have been human.}

Answer 5

When you say 'I don't see how we even have a "problem" at all.', I think you should consider reasons why you might not see a problem, even after reading Aza's post.

These reasons may include:

• The problem does not affect you
• Part of the problem, as described by Aza, is that queer-positive content and queer self-identification are discouraged by a number of moderators; you seemingly do not post queer-positive content or self-identify as queer, so you never notice this
• You are a longtime user of the site, and sympathize with other longtime users, who broadly represent the majority demographics in tech and favor the status quo on StackExchange

Answer 6

The overarching theme of the code of conduct has always been Be Nice and that has been problematic for a long time. There was the Summer of Love back in 2012 which wasn't focused on LGBT+ issues, but the general lack of niceness. In 2014 the new new Be Nice CoC was released that highlighted bigotry based on gender and sexual orientation. Then again in 2018 they confronted LGBT+ issues and said

Many people, especially those in marginalized groups do feel less welcome. We know because they tell us.

If you are looking for unwelcoming behavior you have missed the point. Quoting Jon Skeet (with the hope that maybe it will somehow prevent this from being down voted into oblivion) from that blog post about his experience at a pride parade

I wasn’t just tolerated; I was made to feel like the community was actually better because I was there.

We have examples of people speaking out about unwelcoming behavior. We have Aza's public resignation as well as less publicized LGBT+ mods resigning because of unfair and unwelcoming treatment. We have LGBT+ mods who do not feel they can safely and effectively communicate with other mods.

Examples of unwelcoming behavior are much hard to show since it violates the be nice policy and they get deleted. As a mod, I can assure you there is a lot of sexist and LGBT+ negativity that gets deleted. As for examples of undeleted unwelcoming behavior I point to the fact that Monica was fired and Caleb resigned because they refused to use preferred pronouns. There are also examples of sexist comments in this answer. While I believe they did not do this out of malice or to cause harm or hurt, the fact of the matter is that treating LGBT+ people differently is unwelcoming. If our moderators cannot be a shining example of inclusivity, how can we expect our users to be welcoming.

I guess what I am saying is that the SE team and LGBT+ users are telling us there are problems. I suggest we listen.

Answer 7

I've more or less left the network, largely because of these issues. I was only alerted to the recent drama after getting an email about unread inbox notifications on an old question about pronoun usage...

I should probably say that I've quit SE a few times over these issues. I'd get fed up with the culture and leave, then see some grand gesture in the form of a blog post, or message from a staff member, that they're making efforts to improve things, and then I'd come back to see a tidal wave of blowback.

Some of the worst behavior I've seen on this network with regard to LGBT+ issues, or gender, or race, or ad infinitum, has been watching the community have meltdowns when ever these issues are surfaced. Sort of a:

I'll show you that this thing does't happen by doing the exact thing I'm telling you doesn't happen.

Seriously.

Beyond that, concrete examples are harder to offer. You probably haven't seen much of the nasty stuff because SE deletes it after it has been flagged. Thing is, if you're the target of that abuse you get the notification, see it, and are often the one flagging it for deletion.

So, what's the problem? We delete the rude content, what more do you want?

Well... How about not kicking and screaming any time someone mentions that these things do happen, and are a problem, on the network?

This does not happen to me ≠ This does not happen

As much as Stack Exchange would like to be an island, with its own ecosystems, culture, and values, cut off from the rest of the world... it isn't. Every one of us lives in the world. We're all impacted by what's happening in real life.

The cultural battles and changes that are going on in the world are already happening here on SE. We just opted to sweep them under the rug and act as if all that was off topic. If we refuse to acknowledge the elephant in the room, maybe it'll just go away.

If we don't acknowledge gender everyone is male. If we don't acknowledge race everyone is white. If we don't acknowledge sexual orientation everyone is straight. Etc. After all, who wouldn't want to be assumed to be a cisgender straight white male? What problems could that possibly cause, or reinforce? It's all very egalitarian if we strip our identities away and assume everyone is a cisgender heterosexual white male, am I right?

I think, or rather I would hope, we're learning that that approach wasn't working.

We effectively, even if inadvertently, labeled those folks who'd rather not be assumed to be cisgender heterosexual white men as rabble rousers and trouble makers. We effectively told people that all those issues were off topic, even on meta, even in chat, even on sites where those things are explicitly on topic. We effectively told people that those topics were just too much trouble to moderate.

We effectively, even if inadvertently, told people:

Sure, you're welcome here as long as you stay in the closet and don't talk about it.

If our civility hinges on internet anonymity; or rather our civility hinges on some people maintaining internet anonymity... We're not really being nice. Nor are we "making the internet a better place".

Answer 8

I can now confidently say that there are specific issues which are unwelcoming to some parts of the LGBTQ community.

Trans people suffer a range of challenges in everyday life. Just one of those challenges is having their name and gender recognised both legally and socially. The legal processes for changing ones name and gender marker in places where this is possible tend to be laborious, time consuming and exhausting. Socially, correcting people can be difficult and emotionally taxing.

Sadly, there are people who are unaccepting and/or hateful who actually take pride in determining what they believe to be a person's originally assigned gender and using that in speech targeted to invalidate that person's identity. For example, someone might determine that they believe a woman to be a man and start calling that women "Sir", say "whatever, man" when corrected, or emphasise a male pronoun in their presence "He ordered a latte!". This is known as misgendering and in this example it is deliberate and malicious.

When you are building a space that is trans-inclusive one of the simplest things you can do is affirm that misgendering is not tolerated. Misgendering happens, and a lot of the time it is not malicious so correcting and moving on is the most beneficial approach. When someone is deliberately targeting a user by misgendering, other sanctions would be appropriate.

Once you make this stance, you should be saying that people's pronouns are not up for debate. What is incredibly unwelcoming is hosting debate on that very topic. The fact that there is a question on this site titled "Official FAQ on gender pronouns and Code of Conduct changes" where people are being allowed to actively debate this is draining, unwelcoming and unacceptable.

Answer 9

Are there specific issues with unwelcoming behavior toward LGBTQ persons on Stack Exchange?

Aside from obvious bigotry which is easy to reference and see as wrong. There is one very specific issue that I believe can be expressed succintly:

• Some feel it is hostile not to use a person's preferred pronouns.

• Others feel it is wrong to assume hostility in a person's choice of speech which is not inherently hostile (e.g. using a username vs the preferred pronoun).

These two points, while each having their own merits, can be seen to create contention between the adherents of each.

N.B.: I fully appreciate that there are shades of gray and degrees to these points. But for my own sanity in the blurring lines of discussion over the past days (thank you to those that answered my questions without taking offense), and also of course in answer to the question posted here, this is at least one specific issue that should be addressed.

Answer 10

More of an addendum, as I didn't spend too much time "researching" the observation I intend to share here.

The question quotes Aza's letter of resignation:

By other mods, by staff, and by the entrenched power structure of Stack Exchange, I have been made to feel unwelcome for my queerness. This particular pattern is abusive and makes an ironic mockery of kindness.

That was written September 26th.

September 29th, Monica writes up her story about being fired.

What happened after Monica's message:

• multiple moderators stepped down, or suspended their activity
• multiple practically-hot questions/discussions on Meta.SE
• ... with overall hundreds of comments, many with 100+ votes

Now, see what happened, after that first resignation, out of frustration, and feeling unwelcome for queerness... and you find: almost nothing, with the notable exception of a few comments, or that answer by user StrongBad.

Sure, we don't see what happened after that resignation within the moderator community.

But it seems that being fired in horrible ways by SE resulted in way more outrage than feeling forced to quit, by SE and the moderator community.

Answer 11

A couple of months ago I suggested an edited to a question, the only change was to use the generic they rather than he.

Whilst it was accepted by the OP in the end, two out of three of the reviews rejected it because:

This edit does not make the post even a little bit easier to read, easier to find, more accurate or more accessible. Changes are either completely superfluous or actively harm readability.

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Whilst I don't know many of the issues the members of the LGBT+ community face, I do know that being misgendered isn't exactly comfortable. I'll admit even when I was misgendered multiple times, I didn't think of ways I could prevent making others from also feeling that uncomfortable. It was only when a friend of mine came out as transgender that I realized that pronouns are more than insignificant details.

If I didn't have those two experiences in my life, I probably would right now agree with the people that rejected my edit. And would also find the edit to be superfluous.

I feel issues like this can effect all sites, and chat, without most users ever seeing some of the problems members of the LGBT+ community or other discriminated groups face.

Answer 12

I haven't seen anyone talking about it, but I believe this needs to be said.

Today, I saw the number of downvotes on the new Code of Conduct post and, as a non-binary person it made me think that:

There is more than 600 people who think our very own existence is a pain in their ass and that they would rather have us not exist at all (dead).

Additionally, since there were more downvotes than upvotes on this post, it also made me think that:

There is far more people wishing I would be dead than people who agree that I have the right to exist and be treated like a decent human being.

I also had the (dubious) pleasure of seeing how many upvotes​ had a post claiming that OP wasn't going to participate anymore because of this new, more inclusive, Code of Conduct.

So, if I needed anymore proof that the people voting on MSE weren't happy about my presence here, I just got it.

So yes, I consider those voting a hostile behavior toward LGBT+ people (I'm not even talking about the posts here, just about what people choose to upvote or downvote).

If you need any more proof, just look at the upvotes/downvotes ratio on this thread (question and answers) and on this other one about "How can the community assist in welcoming LGBTQ users?".

Thus, if you want this place to be a little less unwelcoming toward LGBT+ people, go upvote posts that defend us and our rights and actively downvote posts that are against it.

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Edit:

For people saying "this is not what those downvotes mean", I can't help but feel like they mean that. So, when voting onto something, take into account that your vote will be interpreted and very possibly misinterpreted too. Wonder how your vote could be misinterpreted and ask yourself if you are okay for it to be read like that.

Also, I do agree that comments can help understand those votes better and I would usually read them. But I have seen far too many transphobic comments/answers/questions on the last few days/week to feel like I could safely do so anymore (and those posts have only strengthened my feelings about how the votes indicate that I'm not very welcome here).