Adding discipline to programmers.stackexchange.com [closed]

Question

Largely through inaction on our part, http://programmers.stackexchange.com has become a bit of a ... strange and undisciplined place.

We aim to fix this!

Our goal is to remove the bottom 15-20% of the "worst" programmers.se questions and disallow them as not constructive subjective questions. Robert is currently in the middle of composing a blog post about this, with a 4 or 5 factor test the community can use to determine if their subjective questions are either ...

1. good, in the sense that they provide useful information of some kind that others can potentially benefit from
2. bad, in the sense that they are amusing / entertaining but ultimately "junk food" empty experiences

So, please answer this question with:

1. identify a "bad" programmers.se question, and tell us specifically why it is bad.
2. identify a "good" programmers.se question, and tell us specifically why it is good.

(suggestion: check out the "back it up" policy of moms4moms which might inform your opinion on a general strategy for producing USEFUL subjective discussions; that's really what this is about)

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this is now policy for subjective questions as documented on the blog: https://blog.stackoverflow.com/2010/09/good-subjective-bad-subjective/

the cleanup of programmers.se begins this week and will continue:
The Six Subjective Question Guidelines -- Enforcement Notice

Answer 1

please don't stamp out ALL the fun!

I agree with cleaning things up a bit, but I was hoping programmers.se might be a nice place with a slightly looser dress code to discuss some fun things that won't be valuable academically but will be very valuable in making people laugh, bringing the community together, and making people's lives happier. Obviously this is not acceptable on stackoverflow, so I thought it might pass on this different site designed to be a slightly subjective.

If I am completely wrong and programmers.se was meant to be absolutely nothing but academically valuable questions, vote this post down and I'll delete it. :)

Answer 2

I haven't been a participant for very long there, but it is my understanding that there are actually several categories of questions that were meant to exist on Programmers.SE AKA "Not Programming Related", all of which make sense to keep.

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Good Topics

Subjective Questions about Software Development

These are questions that actually are, sort of, about programming, but are just too subjective/open to have a home on Stack Overflow. Examples are:

• What features would you like to see in .NET version 5? (now deleted)

  We actually had this exact question on Stack Overflow, which never should have been allowed to exist. It's clearly relevant to programmers and only programmers, it's just not helping anybody actually get things done.

• How much effort should we spend to programming for multiple cores?

  Another one that's way, way into the subjective camp and would (or at least should) be closed as S&A on Stack Overflow. But still a topic worth "discussing" - if you're into discussion.

• What differentiates the exceptional programmers from the really good ones?

  Super subjective, but theoretically might help people to become better programmers.

Personal Experiences and "War Stories"

These aren't appropriate for a Q&A site - they have no right or wrong answers or even really any good or poor answers, but they do sometimes have educational value. Canonical example:

• Worst coding standard you've ever had to follow?

I don't think that any further explanation is warranted or required for this category. Moving on...

Career Advice / Business of Programming

Highly contentious on Stack Overflow, many people don't want the questions there, and they fit great on Programmers.SE. Some high-voted examples are:

• Job hopping, is it a problem?

  Great example of a practical career advice question, where particularly good answers might actually affect somebody's decision-making for the better.

• I've stopped coding for fun, is this a bad sign?

  Not so practical, but at least relatively specific to programmers. I should note that this is a bit borderline as it could apply to many professions, but programmers are particularly notorious for having work-related hobbies; you don't find many doctors practicing medicine for fun or accountants filing tax returns for fun.

• Why do programmers write apps and then make them free?

  Seems like a legitimate curiosity question that surprisingly didn't erupt in F[OS]S wars. The top answer, while rather trite, is actually a good one.

Resources

Technically, some of these questions might go on Stack Overflow, but Programmers is probably a better place for any new questions about "sites/books/authors/feeds to buy/read". Quick examples:

• What are some good programming cheat sheets?
• As a software engineer, who should I be following on Twitter?

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Gray Area Topics

Fun

I'm not sure if these should exist or not. There's an endless variety of topics and many of the answers really have very little to do with programming (or programmers) at all. Nevertheless, this category is probably half of what's attracting people to the site in the first place, so eliminating them could cause... problems.

Obvious examples:

• What is your favorite “programmer” cartoon? (10k)
• What's your favorite programming joke? (10k)

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Bad/Useless Topics

Work Environments

I find these useless because they're almost never specific to programming. Take questions like these:

• What coworker habit do you find most annoying? (10K)

  This really has nothing whatsoever to do with programming or programmers. Almost all of the answers could apply to any job/profession.

• What music do you code to? (10k)

  This isn't merely subjective, it's a pure opinion poll. Heavy metal as one of the highest-voted answers? Yeah, OK.

Holy Wars

There's even a bloody tag for it. I know people love to argue on the internet, but frankly, I think they make the site look bad. You don't want people to visit the site and get angry.

• Which programming language do you really hate? (10k)

  Seriously? Come on, get over it.

• Do programmers have higher tendency to be atheists than non programmers? (10k)

  Now closed, and with good cause. I don't think I need to explain why.

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I've gotta run now but I think that's a decent set of examples for the time being.

Answer 3

Good questions

“Comments are a code smell”

Bad question for SO, because we've decided that SO's no good for extended, contentious discussions, but perfect for p.se - it's an issue all programmers run into, especially those fresh out of schools whose professors told them to comment every line. Really understanding good commenting/documentation practice will make one a better developer.

How do you learn your way around an undocumented project?

Old hands giving tips to the yung-uns. Anecdotes and stories that might end up being helpful to someone.

Bad questions

What programmer/geek/nerd stereotypes are true/false for you?

Because it's both a poll (often bad news), and contains no useful content. Pure junk food.

Could you recommend some interesting cities/locations that a programmer should visit?

This question might go in a good direction - computer museums, corporate campuses - but when "go to my town, it's got good beer" gets voted up, no. Again, just personal information, nothing useful to programming.

The answers to the "bad" question contain nothing that could improve my experience, skills, or knowledge about programming. Off-topic is one thing - that's why programmers.se exists. Contributes nothing that could be used for the betterment of the readership is another.

Possible close reasons:

• Pointless
• Does not contribute to the overall weal
• This is not Facebook
• Nothing here helps me do my job better
• Not programming related (wait - dammit!)
• Not related to programming or software development in the slightest
• Not appropriate to yell over your cube wall

Answer 4

Damn, I had to upvote Kop. Jeff, you ruined my day.

I really do not know what the issue is here. People complained that SF and SU were used as trash bins for SO content. Well, they were, because there is a need for such a trash can. Someone was smart enough to propose such a can and now you want to clean it up? Are you serious?

Jeff, you are proposing community-driven sites all the time (even so we know it better). So let the Programmer.SE guys care about it. They know best, what to do with their site.

Answer 5

I don't get it.

Programmers is by a HUGE margin the most successful area51 proposal ever. It has double the pageviews of any other proposal, and will soon surpass server fault.

What's the only difference between programmers and the other dozens less successful proposals? That it is, as you call it, undisciplined.

So why change it?

^{Note: to avoid being too verbose I'm replacing "with the most page views" with "successful". Whether it's successful or not is subjective, but let's not get into that. With the terminology of this post successful just means "having more views".}

Answer 6

First, let me say, thank you. A cleanup is sorely needed.

Bad Question: The lifecycle of "cool"

It's bad because it takes 271 words to expand upon a flawed premise (that people only use Textmate and jQuery because of herd behavior) only to ask two questions that essentially amount to "aren't I right? Why am I right?" There are a lot of questions like this on Programmers.SE, and they only serve to provide an outlet to people who want to rant.

Good Question: Job hopping, is it a problem?

It's a question about programmers that isn't programming, doesn't pre-suppose a worldview in the question, and can elicit dozens of good answers without having a definitive one. If only all questions on Programmers.SE were like it.

Basically, beyond the "getting to know you" style questions, the bad questions on Programmers.SE are the ones that pre-suppose a worldview and ask for confirmation or reasons why that worldview is correct. The only thing they succeed in doing is re-hashing the talking points for the position the asker espouses and pissing off everyone who doesn't agree.

Answer 7

...so you go and cull the "bottom 15-20%," whatever you determine that to be, and then what? It's not going to change the people on the site, and it's not going to change the nature of the questions that get posted there, and even if it did, how much notice would people take?

When I was growing up, a friend's mother always thought that the TV was too loud whenever we were watching TV. Now, kids tend to like to have their TV and their music a bit louder than they probably should, but this was not rooted in any objective criteria. She just had it in her head that the TV was too loud, and she'd make us turn it down. And then, maybe 15 minutes later, she'd notice it again and say the TV was too loud, and make us turn it down further, and so on and so on until we couldn't hear a thing. (Even though we had not been turning it back up when she didn't notice. She'd do this even if she was watching something together with us.)

If people start to get it in their heads that the bottom 15-20% need to be cleaned out, I guarantee that they're going to come back later and clean out the bottom 15-20% of whatever's left. And there's only so many times you can do that before all those percentages start to add up to a significant fraction, and suddenly you've detroyed the most successful Area51 community ever.

Programmers was designed explicitly to be a place where the normal rules are inside out, and it's been a huge hit. That's a pretty good sign that it ain't broke; don't "fix" it please.

Answer 8

I think that the main problem with Programmers.SE is a lack of shared vision.

1. A lot of people see it as flowing from the original definition. For example, of the top five on-topic questions, one is way too broad ("What are common mistakes in Software Development?") and two are joke questions. I think P.SE has more or less expanded straight up from there- anything that isn't egregiously unrelated to programming (eg, "what are some good beers for programmers?") flies. Until recently, the effort in meta.p.se had been going to defining exactly where that line was.

2. Mr. Atwood and co, on the other hand, see the future of Programmers.SE as a professional resource, and less of a stack exchange tavern. A blog post mentioned a distaste for "stupid water-cooler nonsense" and a need for meatier discussion.

Either of these options are fine by me, and it looks like the latter is going to be imposed from above.

My point here is not to argue for or against a culling, but rather just to point out that the best way to raise the quality of questions on programmers.se is simply to present a clear vision for what the site should be like.

Answer 9

OK. Trying to take the topic seriously (and not currently a participant on programmers):

• Reasoned opinions and advice based on experience are better than simple likes and dislikes or other pure opinions. That is How do you learn your way around an undocumented project? is more helpful than What are the most impressive tricks an IDE could pull off with the code?.
• Specific comparisons are better than wide open holy wars. That is a (as yet mythical) question on what syntax highlighting features of vim are better or worse than those found in emacs is better than Which is better? VIM vs Emacs.

Meta rule:

If an xkcd comic is the highest rated answer the question is junk, but you won't be able to get rid of it. Too much fun.

Answer 10

I think it's ridiculous to be having this discussion here. As much as you feel that there is some indiscipline on programmers.se, the fact that you are having the discussion here on meta is just stupid.

It's one thing if you want to hash out some guidelines for all stack exchange sites here, but you don't. You are specifically asking for good and bad questions on another SE site that has its own meta which means that the people participating actively on programmers.se are not being asked for their opinion, but are being treated like your red-headed step child.

If people want to make programmers.se better, they should join in, ask and answer questions and use their votes. If people aren't interested in joining, that's not a problem, but we shouldn't be interested in non -participants opinions about what makes a good question and answer on another site, because it doesn't matter. Ironically, while I am an active participant on programmers.se, I can't even vote on these answers here because I don't have reputation on meta. So even though I am (or should be) part of your target audience for this conversation, I cannot cast my votes.

Jeff, if you view programmers as your indisciplined child, then do what a good parent would do: model good behaviour. Encourage others to model good behaviour, by asking good questions and giving good answers that will over time drown out the questions that you, personally, don't like. Don't do a drive by punishment by closing and locking questions to which the community have given time and upvotes. Eventually, these questions will stop being asked as the community grows and finds its way.

Please migrate this discussion to programmers.se where it belongs.

Answer 11

Bad

What's your experience with female programmers?

At best, a pointless trading of anecdotes. At worst, an incubator for stereotypes. Can we expect "What's your experience with [Frenchmen|Jews|poor] programmers" to follow?

What's the most absurd myth about programming issues?

At best, pointless chit-chat. At worst, flame-bait. And entirely too general ("programming issues"?) in any case.

Worst coding standard you've ever had to follow?

Chit-chat. And, The Daily WTF does it better.

...

Good

“Comments are a code smell”

Not terribly well asked, but an honest question. Hopefully the author has some good counter-arguments to his co-worker's assertions now.

How to respond when you are asked for an estimate?

A common problem for working programmers, and one often overlooked during training.

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There are very, very few questions on Programmers that I think have any real value to them, apart from being somewhat fun to participate in. Of course, this was the point of Programmers.SE - it was proposed as a place for all the inane "what do programmers like?" questions that kept cropping up on SO! But if you're determined to get serious about this, I think aiming for the worst 15% is entirely too conservative: skim off the top 10%, and let the rest disappear.

Answer 12

A bad example

• What is better for coding - desktop or laptop?

There are actually quite a few questions of this type, which I really dislike. This question is not interesting, because most people would find it rather obvious that a desktop computer is faster/more ergonomic/more functional than a laptop computer, but that laptops have the advantage of being mobile. What more is there to say, really? I get the feeling that the OP sort of wants to post a very general question hoping it to become highly popular and heavily up-voted. The answer with the highest score says

Assuming you have an external monitor and keyboard to connect to your laptop the difference is small.

which anyone could have come up with.

Generally, "do not post questions that have predictable answers".

A good example

There are many good examples, so I feel it'd be silly to give examples, but here is one at least. I choose this particular one, because I think that many would not consider it a "good" example:

• What's your favorite programming joke?

This is good because it is fun (and no, the answers are definitely not predictable!). It is not bad to have fun once in a while. This question would not fit on StackOverflow.com, but I think questions like this are fun enough at programmers.stackexchange.com (I refuse to write "programmers.se" because I live in Sweden, so for me, ".se" is a TLD).

Also fun enough: What things are essential on a programmer's desk?

For completeness, I also give

The ideal questions

• What feature do you want to see in the next version of Delphi (say)?
• What are the lesser known but useful functions in the Delphi RTL (say)?
• What syntax element do you hate most in a programming language you use frequently?

Answer 13

Here is an answer that isn't entirely responsive.

One of the puzzles of subjective questions on an SE site is reputation. We're all seen it -- subjective questions are vote magnets, and it warps the rep system.

If, by some means, the rep disparity could be controlled, it would remove one of the incentives for posting the questions you want to get rid of. Would that make a significant dent? Only an experiment would tell for sure -- if there was an alternative voting mechanism to try out.

OK, how about this? It's very different, but I think it would be better on a subjective site. Instead of everyone getting to vote up or down, and adding them all up, let everyone rate, and average them. The simplest rating system would look just like the voting system: -1, 0, 1. In other words, people go ahead and vote, but what results is the average, not the sum. Even if 500 people think that the question is totally rad, the resulting score is '1', and the reputation gain matches.

A more radical change would allow five possible ratings instead of three.

Answer 14

A bad example:

Vi vs. Emacs?

This is a bad question because it is flame bait as well as extremely subjective. There is virtually nothing useful to be learned from such a question.

A good example:

Practical Differences Between VS2010 Ultimate and VS2010 Express?

This question is seeking factual advice for product differences. Nobody can contest facts and there is plenty to be learned from such a question.